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Daily numbers, graphs, analysis thread 5

999 replies

Barracker · 15/04/2020 20:28

Welcome to thread 5 of the daily updates.

Resource links:
Worldometer UK page
Financial Times Daily updates and graphs
HSJ Coronavirus updates
Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Centre
NHS England stats, including breakdown by Hospital Trust
Covidly.com to filter graphs using selected data filters
ONS statistics for CV related deaths outside hospitals, released weekly each Tuesday
Google mobility stats

Thank you to all contributors for their factual, data driven, and civil discussions.Flowers

OP posts:
Thread gallery
78
cathyandclare · 21/04/2020 11:12

Sorry, they say it may have happened less.

Laniakea · 21/04/2020 11:13

Because - as HIV, hepatitis & prion disease have demonstrated - using blood products cannot be an entirely safe process. I’ve had iv immunoglobulin treatment (for another condition, 15 years ago) ... I’m now prevented from donating blood because of the risk I acquired an infection from the product. The risk is greater for plasma infusions because they use pooled product (from lots of different donors). Obviously there are times when the risk is acceptable but a vaccine would be preferable. I still have moment of oh fuck what if I develop CJD but obviously I can’t do anything anything about it!

Also all the usual logistical issues of obtaining & distributing it - particularly if a relatively large proportion of recovered patients seem not to have high levels of antibodies.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/04/2020 11:15

"if we can treat people by harvesting antibodies from humans do we need to pay pharmaceutical companies to develop a vaccine?"

This treatment is still in development and will be continued

  • no sensible avenue is being stopped while development of the vaccine is ongoing

We need people to donate antibodies in signifiant numbers, both for research and for later treatment
We don't know at what stage of the infection antibods treatment can be effective

The main reason why a vaccine is still necessary is that COVID is serious enough for a significant minority of people

  • and can cause very sudden deterioration - to want to avoid ever getting it

We can treat many diseases which are less serious than COVID,
but we still vaccinate against them

wintertravel1980 · 21/04/2020 11:15

Hi BigChocFrenzy

"You aren't suggesting anything that wasn't accounted for in the models

It would be pretty strange if any of us here spotted something that epidemiologists around the world had overlooked."

No, of course not. The Imperial report clearly highlights its assumptions (e.g. mortality rate/IFR of 0.9%, up to 81% of population being infected, R0 of 2.4, etc).

However it is highly likely that some (if not all) of these assumptions may have to be revised as we learn more about the virus. I am not questioning the number of asymptomatic cases (the latest Icelandic research seems to support the 50% figure). However so far there is little evidence to support the 81%. Even if we go with the Merkel's estimate of 60-70%, the outcome of the model will be different.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/04/2020 11:25

winter The advice will of course be updated as new data comes in from the UK and from around the world
The predictions will become more accurate

That is how models progress
(math models were my area of expertise for nearly 40 years, but in R&D not in epidemiology)

Governments had to act when they did with the information they had then
We don't have all their data, or full access to their expert advisers
and historians - with the benefit of hindsight - will likely criticise most governments and experts

The most recent CDC report calculated an R0 of 5.7, btw
So estimates can become more pessimistic, as well as optimistic

We are only coming out of the first wave
All govts are trying to avoid a repeat of 1918 / 1919 (with a far worse 2nd wave and then a 3rd wave still worse than the 1st)

The UK has an advantage is being able to observe what happens to other comparable countries, where the epidemic is further along
It is important to learn from them, but also to consider factors specific to the UK

B1rdbra1n · 21/04/2020 11:28

No sensible avenue is being stopped while the development of the vaccine is ongoing
Bigchoc, I notice that you say 'the vaccine', as if a vaccine is 'out there' we just need to to find it, I know that's a figure of speech and not meant to be taken literally but still the implication is that there will be a vaccine.
I'm not so sure 🤔
I know that there are strong incentives for the development of vaccine and necessity is the mother of invention, but we have not developed vaccines against other coronavirus, and yet you seem confident, optimistic?

BigChocFrenzy · 21/04/2020 11:33

btw, one thing I would have thought utterly impossible has happened:

US oil having a negative price
i.e. actually having to pay to store it

and we have a 1 in 100 years pandemic

Some things we just can't predict or fully plan for
Currently we have a flock of Black Swans, who are incestuously related

B1rdbra1n · 21/04/2020 11:34

In the absence of a vaccine could we have a system where we closely monitored any cases, recognise immediately anyone who is developing a serious case of the illness and then optimise the way that we deal with these serious cases
(I suppose the answer to that is going to be something along the lines of 'yes if you were in Germany that could happen, tough luck everyone else you bunch of losers' 🤦🏼‍♀️)

BigChocFrenzy · 21/04/2020 11:37

B1 I'm am only quoting the opinion of experts working in the field who are confident there will be a vaccine - several versions possibly as so many teams are working on it

There are vaccines for some Coronaviruses in animals
It is just that the economic case was not there until now for existing Coronaviruses affecting humans, such as colds

Vaccine development for SARS was stopped, because SARS never spread much and has died out
MERS also had v few cases

And cynically, they hardly affected the West ....

BigChocFrenzy · 21/04/2020 11:40

Ending COVID via Vaccination

https://www.city-journal.org/coronavirus-vaccine
The biopharmaceutical industry will be able to make a Covid-19 vaccine

  • probably a few of them - using various existing vaccine technologies.

But many people worry that Covid-19 will mutate and evade our vaccines, as the flu virus does each season.

Covid-19 is fundamentally different from flu viruses, though, in ways that will allow our first-generation vaccines to hold up well.

To the extent that Covid does mutate, it’s likely to do so much more slowly than the flu virus does,
buying us time to create new and improved vaccines.

Every virus has a genome composed of genetic material (either RNA or DNA) that encodes instructions for replicating the virus.
When a virus infects a cell, it accesses machinery for making copies of its genomic instructions and follows those instructions to make viral proteins that assemble, with copies of the instructions, to form more viruses
(which then pop out of the cell to infect new cells, either in the same host or in someone new).

There is a critical difference between coronaviruses and flu.

The novel coronavirus genome is made of one long strand of genetic code.
This makes it an “unsegmented” virus—like a set of instructions that fit on a single page.

The flu virus has eight genomic segments, so its code fits on eight “pages.”

That’s not common for viruses, and it gives the flu a special ability.
Because the major parts of the flu virus are described on separate pages (segments) of its genome, when two different flu viruses infect the same cell, they can swap pages.

Imagine two people with eight-page reports fighting over a copy machine.

In the tussle, some copies might turn out to have a mix of pages from two different reports.
This page-swapping process, where viruses exchange parts of their genome, is called reassortment.

The flu can change rapidly when multiple strains pass through the same host.
But coronavirus, as a one-page report, tends to stay together,
and while coronaviruses can swap sections

  • in a process known as recombination - it is difficult to achieve and thus rare. (Imagine two pages ripping in the same way and swapping pieces that get glued together again.)

Coronavirus does mutate.
.....
A vaccine is like a description of a wanted criminal:
it tells your immune cells whom to look out for.

So long as the suspect’s appearance doesn’t change too much, then the vaccine works.
....
But once we’ve developed a vaccine for this strain

  • and once we’ve all taken it - we’ll have herd immunity to it.

That immunity may fade as our immune system forgets the picture that the vaccine showed it,
but we can solve that by getting booster shots of the same Covid-19 vaccine periodically.

What we don’t have to worry about is the virus rapidly mutating away from our vaccines as fast as flu can,
because owing to its simplicity, it can’t pull off the flu’s face-swapping tricks.

(Early serious mistake by WHO and govt epidemiologists is that they initially assumed that - as for flu - people without symptoms would not yet be infectious

But that isn't the case for COVID-19 !)

B1rdbra1n · 21/04/2020 11:44

Thanks Bigchoc for the great info on vaccines 😊👍
Reading the link now!
As for the oil prices 🤯🤯🤯
Oil sheiks must be getting the shakes😲😲😲

123bananas · 21/04/2020 11:48

No demand for oil currently, but as soon as we start moving around and get industry going it will increase in price again.

Floopsy · 21/04/2020 11:57

@B1rdbra1n

As someone who lived in the UK in the 1990s I am unable to donate blood or plasma here in Belgium due to the increased risk of CVJ disease. Here they have put out a call for men who have recovered from COVID 19 to donate plasma. Women cannot because of the risk of antibodies from pregnancy. That might leave a very small pool of potential donors being required to donate to a very large group of people.

I assume Johovah's Witnesses would not be able to receive blood plasma if they can't receive blood transfusions? Are there any other religious groups who are unable to receive plasma?

BigChocFrenzy · 21/04/2020 11:57

tbh, I would want to see experts in other countries agreeing that strains are so much more virulent than those China suffered

It would be a very convenient explanation for those Chinese statistics that many analysts have become increasingly dubious about

Especially after China officially revised Wuhan deaths to add on another 50%
and is still persecuting whistleblowrs & censoring papers published

NewAccountForCorona · 21/04/2020 11:59

Thanks BigChoc, it was me who asked about R0. I can't find a broadsheet quote, but The Sun and The Mail (sorry) both say that last Thursday Sir Patrick Vallance, the Government’s Chief Scientific Officer, said the R value overall is below one, probably between 0.5 and 1.

According to your data, in Germany it's being based on number of new cases, and the fact that they are dropping. But in the UK where testing was (and is) practically non-existent, and where they have no idea how many in the community are infected, how are they making any estimate at all? It seems wishful thinking to me.

Comenext · 21/04/2020 12:07

@BigChocFrenzy What a great post. You have explained it really well and made me feel a lot more hopeful.

B1rdbra1n · 21/04/2020 12:14

Risk of antibodies from pregnancy
Floopsy, thanks for that info👍 clearly there's a lot more to it than I realised 😳

MarshaBradyo · 21/04/2020 12:16

Excellent post thanks BigChoc

B1rdbra1n · 21/04/2020 12:19

Re the Chinese scientist's convenient explanation for thier anomalous statistics
They would say that wouldn't they 🤔

QuentinWinters · 21/04/2020 12:58

123bananas that paper about virulence doesn't surprise me and is congruent with other pandemics.
If the virus can mutate so a strain is more infectious, that strain will spread quickly. But more infectious can mean more lethal.

I'm relying on studying over 20 years ago so I'm surprised that this is unexpected

larrygrylls · 21/04/2020 12:59

Bigchoc,

'US oil having a negative price
i.e. actually having to pay to store it'

I don't think that this is actually true! The March future expired with a negative price. I think spot WTI was trading around $18-19/barrel at that point.

Most people who trade oil are speculators. They just want to have a position on their computer and have no capacity to take what is termed 'physical delivery' (I.E a trader sitting in JP Morgan does not, in general, have access to actual tankers or vats to put the oil in).

If you are left with a long position in a future at expiry then you have to take delivery according to the following terms:

'Delivery shall be made free-on-board ("F.O.B.") at any pipeline or storage facility in Cushing, Oklahoma with pipeline access to Enterprise, Cushing storage or Enbridge, Cushing storage. Delivery shall be made in accordance with all applicable Federal executive orders and all applicable Federal, State and local laws and regulations.

At buyer's option, delivery shall be made by any of the following methods: (1) by interfacility transfer ("pumpover") into a designated pipeline or storage facility with access to seller's incoming pipeline or storage facility; (2) by in-line (or in-system) transfer, or book-out of title to the buyer; or (3) if the seller agrees to such transfer and if the facility used by the seller allows for such transfer, without physical movement of product, by in-tank transfer of title to the buyer.'

As I said above, most futures speculators would have no idea how to deal with actual oil delivered to Cushing, Oklahoma! Thus they sold their long positions at whatever they were offered (including a negative price).

I imagine those arbitrageurs who could take physical delivery made out like bandits on this.

FATEdestiny · 21/04/2020 13:02

BBC reporting the ONS deaths "hit 20 year high"

Why 20 years?
What happened 20 years ago?

BirdandSparrow · 21/04/2020 13:02

I've been following this thread and came across this today Boy with Covid-19 did not transmit disease to more than 170 contacts

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/21/boy-with-covid-19-did-not-transmit-disease-to-more-than-170-contacts?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copiar_en_el_portapapeles

QuentinWinters · 21/04/2020 13:03

I think that could also explain why Asian countries initially were less impacted.

I think it's a particular type of human arrogance that makes us believe the initial spread of the virus in different countries is down to human actions.

I don't think China has been as open but I also think the path of the virus there has been very different - it obviously got out of wuhan (or the rest of the world wouldn't have it) yet other parts of china haven't seen the spread we have had in Europe/america. That to me has suggested a more virulent strain here for a long time.

It would be interesting to compare the FT graphs with strains rather than different government actions

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