How is this still spreading?

[Dee96]

This may sound like a rather dumb question but the whole point of lockdown was to decrease the rate of this spread. I understand for a while into the lockdown we was going to see the results of those who caught it beforehand starting to display symptons but were all 3 weeks into this now and it doesnt seem to be slowing down. Yes I know people still need to go the shops ect but given the measures they are now taking and how they are controlling how many people enter the shops I would think it's actually safer and less likely a risk to shop now rather than before when everyone was panic buying. So how come death rates and cases dont seem to be slowing, especially given theres a huge amount of undetected cases as well

They might be moving to rehab or hospice or nursing home or recovery centre ("needing beds in a different place"). Those aren't a lot safer beds against covid19 coz it's spreading in those places, too, sadly. And there is a bed for them in hospital, so I guess you could say "people who need beds somewhere else " = 35 chars vs. 11 chars in "bedblockers"

Thing is, Social care very often means a whole care package. It's not actually a bed, but a whole care package that needs to be organised, wherever they are going. Often they go back to own home so they don't need "a bed" in any kind of institution, but rather they need a care package that meets all their needs while returning to live in own home; it's getting that care package in place that can be a huge challenge & hence the staying in hospital for very long periods, hence the 'bed blocking' effect. Sometimes it's a matter of working out with loved ones what the right care package is, getting the family to accept the person is ready to go back to their own home. So you can't say "people who need beds" to accurately describe the bed blocking effect.

Does anyone remember that late last year lots of nursing homes were closing down (awful inspection reports) and this was causing massive bed blocking problems?

You could say "People who need a care package in order to be safely discharged from the hospital or similar institutional environment where they are taking up a bed that might be used by someone else and hence in normal life would mean they are causing long stays that mess up the trust's performance statistics but also right now in covid19 times means they are at higher risk of getting covid19 than they probably would be in a non-residential care community setting like their own home" - I dunno, seems a bit wordy to me, maybe. Did anyone fall asleep before they go to the end?

My colleagues said nursing homes were still open up to about 17 March... maybe later. So some infections got into the homes by then. Care workers often work in multiple private homes & nursing homes. They can transfer germs between these places & occasionally from their own family environments. There's been low suspicion of cv19 until it's too late. They were paid too badly to afford time off if they had mild symptoms themselves. The workers don't need to go near a supermarket to pick up the germs, so many at work. Lack of PPE & training to use it. All described in the CDC report on the WA nursing home outbreak.

Hospitals are now sending covid positive patient to covid free care homes, to die. And managers are accepting them. That’s how it’s still being transmitted.
Care homes are not hospitals. They aren’t cleaned to the same level. They don’t have the right or enough ppe.
Despite doing the best job possible, once covid 18 is in a care home it’s game over. It will spread through the residents and staff like wildfire.
It’s heartbreaking. And I lost my job for calling out my area manager in this practise.

It's spreading because stupid people still think they won't get it.

There is a mum I see most days. Today I watched her and her 2 children walk/ride bikes/run past my house at least half a dozen times at different times of the day. Stupid, stupid woman,. I am genuinely gob smacked at her stupidity. She has a garden - a huge one - it backs onto open fields. Her children have acres they can play in never meet a soul, yet she still takes them out onto the street where they will come in close contact with others. Each time she takes her children out she is risking their lives because they all stop and talk to every passer by. She talks to the old lady who lives opposite to me who likes to sit in her garden watching the world go by.

As I said - stupid, stupid woman.

The rate of increase is beginning to flatten. That doesn't mean that daily numbers are decreasing , just that they are slowing down.

Italy has been in lockdown for around 6 weeks and it is only recently that the numbers of new infections and deaths look visibly smaller each day. They are just talking about starting to loosen some restrictions soon.. Similar in Spain, though they seem to be ending some restrictions earlier than Italy

It’s good it’s lower in Spain anc Italy but I can’t imagine what people will feel like as a second peak approaches. I suppose it depends on what power restrictions will do to infection rate and how many people have had it already.

@Bargebill19 That is tragic. It is manslaughter.

I think so too. But what do I know according to my area manager I am stupid. I suggested that it made more sense to send such patients to a home which already had covid patients, and keep those homes which were free from infection- free from infection for as long as possible. I thought the idea was to NOT spread this virus to vulnerable elderly people and staff and their families. Evidently I was very much mistaken. The homes are in the same group/company so no revenue loss.
I was told I would be reported to the company owner, this meant I would be in line for instant dismissal. So I quit. This was this weekend.
Company policy to not inform relatives at all or staff until they are on duty.
I truly tried my hardest to protect the residents and my colleagues. Management could not care less about either.

@bargebill No wonder so many people in some care homes are dying. And the number of overall deaths are not even being reported. I hope families sue the home.
Could you speak to a journalist and whistle blow about this?

@Bargebill19
On the Radio 4 news pm programme last night a carehome manager was interviewed and they have no say who the NHS sends to their homes. Whether the people ahve covid or not the private care homes have to take them.

I understood that care homes were closing down because they were unprofitable not because they received bad reports - though no doubt some did receive them.

There is no way, scientifically, with the small amount of testing going on in the UK that anyone can say it's "only" spreading in carehomes. And if that's what Witty has said, then it's another lie to add to the many.
If he said "the only place we absolutely know of where it's spreading, because we aren't testing anywhere else so we don't know, is carehomes because we are seeing high numbers of deaths from carehomes many of whom are given no treatment other than "making them comfortable" and, in some cases, being left to die in those carehomes"

Notangelina- true. You only have to look at the threads on here, "no, I'm not worried a out it, why should I?" to see that many people, in times of crisis adopt either the ostrich stance or the me me me one.

Covid may not affect me personally, but when the equivalent of 5 planeloads of people are dying in the UK every day , then call me soft, but it worries me.

We do have a say in who we accept. But that is down to management. Not those of us on the floor on minimum wage.
We have a duty of care to look after and protect our residents. That is the law. That is why I did what I did. Even though I ultimately lost.
To go to a newspaper- I would need would need hard evidence. When everything is done by telephone call - you can see how easy it is to deny and cover the scandal up.
And yes. At some point I will need to find work again, as it is I won’t be getting a reference and I’m going to have to explain why and hope to god that another employer will agree with the actions I took. My actions whilst in the best interests of the residents and staff, are not in the beat interest financially for the company. Yes it might be a company providing care- but first and foremost it is a profit making company, care comes way down the list.

Bargebill19

Call me stupid but isn’t it in the company’s best interest to keep the old people alive.

If they kill them off then when this is all over they won’t have a business.

I would say they were the stupid ones

You would think wouldn’t you!
But it will work like this - an empty room earns nothing. So you fill it with whoever will pay. Currently the councils are offering a 10% increase in payment to homes accepting council/nhs patients. That’s a good inducement to start with.
Many contracts state that if you take a room you have to pay for a full month no matter what happens. So, you accept a covid patient and they die after say four days - you still charge for the full month, plus you get to rent out that room again within the same time frame, most likely three times at the rate people are dying. That’s a huge monetary incentive.
As hospices are effectively shut to new patients- there is a never ending stream of new patients needing a bed. Care in the community is drying up due to staff shortages and anyway patients need to be assessed for needs before a community/home care package can be arranged. So they too get sent to a care home awaiting assessment, because meanwhile the nhs needs the beds for new coronavirus patients.
Short term it’s a cash cow waiting to be milked. Long term - people will easily forget how and why so many deaths occurred in care homes. They will blame the virus, not poor decision making.

I’ve lost my job because I dared to say that it was wrong to send hospital covid positive patients to my care home which we had managed to keep virus free for four weeks. To me it made more sense to send them to our sister home which already had 14 deaths and 4 positive cases (tested) of coronavirus. Most of the staff had also had or do have the virus as well. Our had NO virus symptoms circulating within staff or residents.
Nor did I agree with the policy of not telling relatives or staff what was going to happen.
My reasoning was - yes we’ve had deaths from this, but let’s limit the impact for as long as we can. I know that anyone of the staff could have brought the virus in unknowingly. But the management said no. I feel it is wrong to knowingly bring covid19 into a virus free home deliberately.
I was called stupid by my area manager and I was going to be reported. Knowing the company that would be instant dismissal. So I quit. I couldn’t stay somewhere that cares so little for residents, relatives and staff.
So I lost my job.

Sorry for the rant. I’m still ... raw about it.

Then the council are being fools as well.

If they can’t see they have rented a room and care for 1 person for a month then they should be arguing that they are just changing the one person and have paid for the room and care for that month already.

Horrifying how councils are with other people’s money.

I wonder is there a connection between the care home and the people in the council making the decisions on the financing of this

Could you request the financing of this and how they arrived at the decision to do this under FOI.

I would be interested in how this agreement came to be.

It the contract they sign. Same for those of us who are paying privately for our loved ones care (not everyone gets council funding)
They need somewhere to put people. There isn’t an alternative for the council. There are only privately run homes. Even charitable homes have to earn money to cover their overheads. (There aren’t that many charitable homes either).
Care homes are a business first and foremost. If you are charging £3k - £4K a month for one person in one room - that’s looking really good if you can get twice that for a room.
To the accountants in a business - a room is a figure to quantify. To a carer in a home, it’s someone’s mum, sister, aunt, dad, brother, uncles and our friend we are looking after, not a monetary figure.
Do I think there is a connection between the home and council - Honestly no I don’t. It’s big business knowing how to make money. I worked for a medium sized chain of homes, across the country not a one of in one council area.

But then what do I know - I only earnt minimum wage and was part time. According to my area manager “stupid” as well. ..

The current offer for the government to pay for extra staffing and other increased costs due to covid 19 is already in the government website free for anyone to read. Council agreements to pay the 10% increase are also easy to find in the internet. I found it by looking at our local council website.
It’s all out in the public arena already. You just need to google (other search engines are available).
As for contracts, anyone who has ever had to use a care home will have a standard contract telling them their liabilities in the event of a death within the specified timeframe. Most state that payment must be made to the end of the month in which the person died, some may be kinder and state a week.

I do know of some homes who have a block booking of rooms by the local council, Birmingham and Northamptonshire are to councils which use it have used this type of contract, again public knowledge- so whether they are used or not the home still gets an income. However, with these contracts the home will have a limited say in who they can accept. The home can refuse to accept someone if they cannot meet their needs. They also have a duty of care to their existing residents. Theoretically that can refuse residents under that clause, but in reality it is quite hard. Eg, you must have documented and explored every avenue available to prevent the behaviours which are negatively impacting on other residents wellbeing.