Denmark mandatory Covid19 vaccine

[scamander]

Put aside vaxxer/antivaxxer hats for a little please. Does this bother anyone? Do people not have a choice? Are we losing our freedom before our very eyes?

'As well as enforcing quarantine measures, the law also allows the authorities to force people to be vaccinated, even though there is currently no vaccination for the virus'

www.google.com/amp/s/www.thelocal.dk/20200313/denmark-passes-far-reaching-emergency-coronavirus-law/amp

@Lelophants

I'm pro vaccinne and this is wrong. Studies actually show it doesnt work anwhay and when forced, people are even less likely to have it (not sure how they get round it but they do).

What if we have a bad vaccinne? Corruption?

This

[quote trulydelicious]@CherryPavlova

Far better it is required for those things that are technically optional but which people want to do.

Genuinely curious as you seem to be so adamant that people are coerced into taking a new Covid vaccine. How would you feel if the vaccine ended up damaging your health or the health of your family? It could happen you know, nobody knows as these are new vaccines[/quote]
Daft question. How can I possibly know how I’d feel? Just as I accept there is a significant risk to driving my car, I accept there is a tiny risk by being vaccinated. Nobody forces me to drive my car but it makes life easier for me, so I take that risk.
Vaccination makes like safer for the overwhelming majority. Those not accepting vaccination place others at real risk. Imagine if people refused smallpox vaccination.
In August the WHO shared the eradication of polio from Africa. That is entirely due to mass global vaccination.

Have you ever seen polio? I have, so maybe that makes a difference.

boobot1 Where are these studies?

@CherryPavlova

But you are comparing Covid new technology vaccines with Polio and Smallpox that have been around for years.

I accept there is a tiny risk by being vaccinated

How do you know the risk is tiny? You cannot possibly ascertain how it's going to affect you that at this point

I'm not anti-vaxx by the way

To put my remarks into context you should know I have a PhD in immunology, have 20+ years experience in the pharma industry including some time doing vaccine research. I am as pro-vaccines as they come and would always encourage someone to vaccinate when they can. However, it is a basic human right to refuse medical intervention and it would have massive implications to force people to have this vaccine. I can't imagine a conservative government getting a law through parliament, there'd be a backbench rebellion and the Lords would block it. We are not free unless we have the right to be wrong because while I might be happy to take an approved vaccine that doesn't mean I'm happy to accept every medical intervention or agree with every law parliament passes. We don't all agree in every situation who is wrong and who is right. I may disagree with antivaxers and am happy to argue with them but it's vitally important that they are allowed to say what they believe.

It’s ridiculous to make a vaccine mandatory for a disease which is mild/asymptomatic for the vast majority of people.

To put this remark into context compare to the PP talking about the clamour for the polio vaccine. Polio is a mild gut infection in 99% of the population, in only 1% of people does the virus infect the nervous system. The difference of course is that the seasonal polio epidemics only affected the young, older people were already immune. There was a massive race to develop the first polio vaccine, everyone wanted the glory (and money) associated with developing a vaccine. Just because we know much more virology and molecular biology now than we did in the 50s and have more scientists with better technology working on a Covid-19 vaccine doesn't mean we are cutting corners in comparison to the scientists in the 50s. In fact, while saving many thousands of lives, there were issues with the original polio vaccine and we use a much safer version now. The learning from the development of that polio vaccine (and every other vaccine on the market) is used to make new and future vaccines safer.

trulydelicious. There was a time when the other vaccines were new. Read up on the history. The Chinese were vaccinating in around 1000AD. Definitely no modern testing then.
In fact the development of testing vaccination safety in proper trials is quite recent. Measles vaccines were tested as late as 1958 on children living in institutions for those with learning disabilities in America by a chap called Peebles.

Having been around longer doesn’t make them safer. The modern vaccine testing and licensing process is very stringent. Far more so than ever before.

@RuleOfCat
And as you actually carry an Impfpass (mine is now 57 years old and upto date), they can also record your exemption in this pass.

I had measles before there was a vaccination and though I - unlike others in my year - survived, kept my hearing, did not develop SSPE, I still remember how dreadfull I felt for months afterwards and the empty classrooms.

And I put trust in StIKO recommendations and will have the vaccine as soon as it is there and it is my turn.
To get DH back into work (no grants for him), DD back into uni, DMil and her sister back into contact with people (care home "inmates") and get all those 'no cost' community events that are open to the poorest people back.

@CountFosco

Thanks for your insight

I have a question. Why the need to conduct a mass experiment with new technology such as mRNA now?

Why is not more emphasis and funding put into developing a Covid vaccine with existing tried and tested methods (e.g. whole inactivated virus) which have over the years proved to be largely safe?

Perhaps people would be more comfortable being vaccinated if this was the case

Anti vaxxers should accept the consequences then. Why should at risk people pay for their choice?

mRna is not that novel. There is already a drug out there that is based on this technology and has been tested on extremely vulnerable children. Look up zolgensma and have a read if you are interested.
So far the technology itself has proven to be safe.

@CountFosco
That is the position of previledge that a lot of at risk population can’t afford. So if anyone doesn’t want to get vaccinated, they shouldn’t be allowed to take someone else’s right to a healthy life and body.

Honestly, people who say tings like the 'swine flu vaccine was not safe' really don't understand the concept of risk either

For instance the constantly repeated myth that a particular flu vaccine was found to cause Guillain-Barré syndrome/

In fact flu itself is far more likely to cause Guillain-Barré than any flu vaccine.

A 2009 study found that out of every million people who get flu, between 40 and 70 develop Guillain-Barré. So your best chance of avoiding Guillain-Barré is to get vaccinated, a conclusion backed by a 2007 study.

[[https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18014-swine-flu-myth-the-vaccine-isnt-safe-it-has-been-rushed-through-tests-and-the-last-time-there-was-a-swine-flu-scare-the-vaccine-hurt-people-why-take-the-risk-to-prevent-mild-flu/#ixzz6ezzLSW1o
www.newscientist.com/article/dn18014-swine-flu-myth-the-vaccine-isnt-safe-it-has-been-rushed-through-tests-and-the-last-time-there-was-a-swine-flu-scare-the-vaccine-hurt-people-why-take-the-risk-to-prevent-mild-flu/ Vaccines not safe myth]]

As for the question around narcolpesy and the Swine flu vaccine. The fact that an increase in narcolepsy was observed in come countries when the vaccine was rolled out does not in itself prove causation . The link is unclear and a couple of studies have found that there is causation . It was also noticed that an increase in narcolepsy was seen in countries that had not yet rolled out the vaccine, suggesting that the flu itself might be causing more cases of narcolepsy rather than the vaccine.

www.statnews.com/2018/07/05/flu-vaccine-2009-pandemic-narcolepsy/

Vaccines are incredibly safe and much safer than the illnesses they are designed to prevent

no causation!

I think Denmark will want to go hard and fast because of their mink problem

Latest today is problems with the mass burial: whether it was legal (should they have been incinerated?) and whether the current sites are too close to water supply areas

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55101058

why did they not burn them?

I have a question. Why the need to conduct a mass experiment with new technology such as mRNA now?

Why is not more emphasis and funding put into developing a Covid vaccine with existing tried and tested methods (e.g. whole inactivated virus) which have over the years proved to be largely safe?

The mRNA technology has the advantage of speed of development and manufacture. There are well over 100 vaccines being developed worldwide and the UK has bought 7 different vaccines using 4 different technologies including several that are manufactured in the UK. At the beginning of this we had no idea which vaccine technology would work the best, it's fabulous that Pfizer and Moderna have had such promising results so quickly. We'll have to wait and see which vaccine has the perfect combination of cheap, low dose, easy to distribute, high protection, effective in the over 65s, etc etc. None of the first generation of vaccines will be perfect on all fronts.

I don't think it should be compulsory but I do think that things like travel abroad, admittance to places like theatres, concerts etc need proof that you have had it.

That's my opinion too. And proof for travelling via train.

I wouldn't push for a mandatory vaccine since there is always an element of risk no matter how small. However governments are well within their rights to pass laws that protect others from the irresponsible.

Every law we make takes away your rights in order to protect someone else's. Your freedom to go where you like is limited by other people's right not to have you poking around in their house.

Your freedom to drive is limited by the requirement to pass a driving test and further limited by all kinds of traffic laws intended to stop you from killing other people.

@tobee and @LioneIRichTea (great name! 😁) It’s not just the vaccination that can provide immunity though. We now know that natural infection provides at least 6 months of immunity so that is also contributing to herd immunity and protecting the proportion of the more vulnerable who can’t have the vaccine. Every case we have is contributing to that. We may not actually need to high a percentage of vaccine uptake to get us to the herd immunity threshold given our current infection figures and taking asymptomatic cases into consideration.

@CherryPavlova
yes, but we aren’t forced to have the rubella vaccine or asked to prove our rubella vaccine status in order to travel or work (in most instances)

@LastTrainEast

However governments are well within their rights to pass laws that protect others from the irresponsible.

People who are cautious about the possible side effects of a new treatment are not irresponsible though

@TheSunIsStillShining

mRna is not that novel. There is already a drug out there that is based on this technology and has been tested on extremely vulnerable children.

Zolgensma is a gene therapy medicine for treating spinal muscular atrophy, a serious condition of the nerves that causes muscle wasting and weakness.

So, this gene therapy is given to children who already suffer from a serious conditioun. This is very different to using this therapy, calling it a vaccine, and giving it to people who are healthy

@trulydelicious
on the other hand it has been trialed on a very specific age/health group and had no serious side effects that we know of. Which indicates that it might be okay for healthy people. And current clinical trials underpin this. so far.

What's the difference in using it as a therapy or a vaccine? It's given and has an effect in both cases.

If the vaccines stop covid having a severe presentation rather than preventing spread, why on earth would the non vaccinated have to be excluded from anything?
You have your jab, protect yourself from severe illness or death, and stop interfering in what other people do or don't do.

I agree with what @PicsInRed said.

Whilst I think everyone should get vaccinated, I also think everyone should have the choice. Honestly, even I am a little hesitant about getting it.