we have now had more deaths from covid 19 than China!

[EricaNernie]

That is so shocking and awful.
remembering how impressed and worried we were about china building new hospitals almost overnight, and the lockdown
and now it is here.

I am not challenging the article, rather your rude, dismissive and condescending attitude towards other posters.
porseb - mentioned her experiences, she is of Chinese ethnicity, but instead of listening to her point you ask her to comment on another article. Why?
She has experienced racist comments and that should not be dismissed.
No need to be sorry, about not engaging with me , frankly it’s a relief.

At this stage ANY government issued coronavirus figures should be taken as not absolutely accurate - whether China or the U.K.

However, we can judge Government responses to the pandemic as it unfolds.

The Chinese lockdown was brutal and swift and when I first heard of it, I said the U.K. population would never stand for this, they wouldn't comply and this is borne out by some comments on this thread.

The U.K. government lockdown was slow and piece meal.

She has experienced racist comments and that should not be dismissed

@ShanghaiDiva

I don't appreciate your comments either. I already said that I did not wish to engage with you. Lots of people have experienced racism. But it is frankly manipulative to claim that the origins of a global pandemic cannot be discussed. This is a forum where posters ignore each other all the time. Do not imagine you can dictate who responds to whom or who is ignored.

Well, why tag me again if you don’t want to engage?
And I thought my children were exasperating, but this is another level.

You can't just quit, can you? Relentless.

It’s a personal view on how the views on China as a state have led to xenophobic attacks on citizens in the west who look like they make be from China.

Do you think the attacks are because people think China has lied or because of the virus, or both? My mum is Irish & worked for the Irish export board, she had awful abuse during the 70s & 80s because obviously she was a terrorist or terrorist sympathiser, my DHs grandma changed her name as she didn't want people to know she was Jewish.

People are stupid, sales of Corona beer have dropped costing them £132m simply because of the name similarity. Obviously racist attacks are abhorrent but I don't think that means we can't discuss a governments regime or stance & the media should not report on it.

Nobody said the origins cannot be discussed or that comments cannot be made on the media or the Chinese govt,
People’s views are different based on their own experiences and that is both useful and interesting.
I don’t see anyone shutting down a discussion, rather they are adding their own comments. As none of knows the ‘truth’ all contributions are valid.

None of us
My views are, of course, influenced by the fact that i have lived in China for 12 years. Others will have a different perspective.

The actions of a small group of people can taint the reputation of an entire country and create issues for citizens of that country or those who look like they may come from that country.

Your mother's experience as an Irish person is a good example of what the Chinese community in the U.K. is experiencing under this wave. (Racism against the Chinese community happens in waves, when Hong Kongers first started arriving in the 60s in larger numbers, when the Vietnam war saw refugees arriving - many were harassed out of estates they'd been placed in across the U.K.)

The Chinese community is seen as one that rarely complains, and just accepts their lot with stoicism. It's head down, work hard, don't fight back, don't raise your head above the parapet.

Also If you look at numbers in other countries China’s figures don’t add up.

Nonsense. That was why I posted the graphs - the China figures do 'add up'. To suggest they don't makes no sense - the Jan 14 comments are red herrings. Look at the data, understand what the graphs are saying - the comparison of rates between countries adjusted to the same start point (5 confirmed deaths) is incontrovertible.

But shutting down discussion is precisely what you and Porseb have been trying to do in this thread @ShanghaiDiva by your ongoing insinuation that our mistrust of China’s narrative is inherently racist.

It is not. People are specifically criticising the Chinese government and not the Chinese people.

BovaryX is correct that this is a deliberate strategy to shut down discussion and manipulate the narrative. One could be forgiven for thinking that your posts are part of that very strategy given their repetitive and relentless nature. I’m not surprised Bovary no longer wants to engage with you - she has convincingly demonstrated her point and provided credible evidence several times but it seems like she’s banging her head against a brick wall.

@BovaryX - I am in complete agreement with you and when the dust settles and the evidence can be calmly reviewed I have no doubt that the rest of the world will also agree.

Forgot to tag @Thesispieces in my post above, the pp who is so keen to silence justified debate that I suspect they are indeed part of a planned campaign of obfuscation.

I did not say the comments made were racist, but that racist comments should not be dismissed. I do not see that criticism of the Chinese govt is racism and I have not said that comments in this thread were racist.

I don’t have a deliberate strategy, but base my comments on what I have seen and experienced in China. It may not tally with what others want to believe. You have the choice to disregard my comments, but not agreeing with someone is not the same as shutting down a discussion.

@FrankieStein402

No it isnt incontrovertible proof at all it never is www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/why-data-is-never-raw

But as I have said China lying and are Government's incompetence are not mutally exclusive events.

Our Governments inepitude will cause the number and trajetory of our deaths to be more than they should be.

China's lockdown and the way they handle it from a certain point no doubt helped reduced spread and the number of deaths.

Neither of those means that I still dont believe that there was some fudging of the numbers. I also dont think Iran or North Korea have been particularly truthful as well

The Chinese community is seen as one that rarely complains, and just accepts their lot with stoicism

😂😂😂😂 that’s a good one. Maybe the expat community that you move in, but my many years in China say otherwise.

Also? Nice set of stereotypes you got there

But you’re not just disagreeing are you @ShanghaiDiva - you are indirectly making accusations of inciting racism. So it isn’t a debate, it’s an attempt to demonise those whose opinion you don’t agree with and shut them up.

At least that’s how your contributions have come over to me.

BovaryX is correct that this is a deliberate strategy to shut down discussion and manipulate the narrative. One could be forgiven for thinking that your posts are part of that very strategy given their repetitive and relentless nature. I’m not surprised Bovary no longer wants to engage with you - she has convincingly demonstrated her point and provided credible evidence several times but it seems like she’s banging her head against a brick wall. @BovaryX - I am in complete agreement with you and when the dust settles and the evidence can be calmly reviewed I have no doubt that the rest of the world will also agree
@FortunesFavour
Thank you. I think it's appalling that there is a determined, relentless attempt to prevent critical discussion about the origins of a global pandemic. If this had originated in Kansas, not Wuhan, can you imagine the media coverage? Can you imagine if US officials launched a global propaganda campaign blaming Sweden?

^@ShanghaiDiva - you are indirectly making accusations of inciting racism. So it isn’t a debate, it’s an attempt to demonise those whose opinion you don’t agree with and shut them up.
At least that’s how your contributions have come over to me^

Well said. That's precisely how many prolific posters come across.

I have not said that any comments were racist. I have not tried to shut anyone up or accused anyone on here of racism.
Am I living in the twilight zone?
Feel free to show me where I have said posters or comments were racist.

See your post at 20:21 ShanghaiDiva.

I’m not getting drawn in to a circular argument with you. Like I said, I suspect some of the posts on here are part of the campaign of deliberate obfuscation that is taking place. I will not engage with that.

Have a nice evening.

See your post at 20:21 ShanghaiDiva. I’m not getting drawn in to a circular argument with you. Like I said, I suspect some of the posts on here are part of the campaign of deliberate obfuscation that is taking place. I will not engage with that

Well said.

I said that the racist comments poseb experienced should not be dismissed. She was sharing her experience which is as valid as anyone else’s.
How is me pointing this out accusing someone of racism?
This is definitely a first for me : I am a Chinese govt plant engaged in a campaign of deliberate obfuscation. Meanwhile back on planet earth..

Thanks @BovaryX. I agree - the determined attempt to shut down the debate stands out to me very clearly in this thread and others.

Just as well there are well informed posters such as your good self with the courage to call it out despite the tactics being deployed across social media to suppress free speech on this topic. Thank you.

The above comment has to be a wind up.
Your good self..!