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Worried About Coronavirus- thread 34

999 replies

RosieSunset · 26/03/2020 13:38

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RedToothBrush · 28/03/2020 21:52

I have spoken to a friend in the last hour. She is a doctor, at a fairly junior level.

Her hospital has enough PPE for one very small team. They have enough ventilators for around 5 dozen (not going to put exact numbers here for her sake). The projection of the number of patients they are expected at that single hospital are double that number. So she doesn't know what the plan is going to be at that point yet. Just that they will have to deal with it at some point.

She was pretty relaxed about it a few weeks ago. Not so much now.

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2020 21:58

RedToothBrush - France ordered a billion masks from China today. They are out there if your government wants them

Ordered.

They do not have them yet.

This is my point.

Until they are delivered and distributed then they remain theoretical masks.

How long do you think it will take to manufacture, transport to Europe and then deliver a billion masks to where they are needed?

Your best case scenario is probably the best part of a month.

We need them now. France needs them now.

It is already too late for far too many.

WhyNotMe40 · 28/03/2020 22:07

I still don't understand how the government could have failed to provide basic PPE in time. They had plenty of warning.
Ffs I managed to stock up on next size shoes and summer clothes for my kids in case factories were shut last month! I stocked up on Calpol and toothbrushes and baked beans the very first week of February.

They had warning...

MyHipsDontLieUnfortunately · 28/03/2020 22:14

I still don't understand how the government could have failed to provide basic PPE in time. They had plenty of warning.

They didn't want to believe it. They didn't want to thank the economy.

MyHipsDontLieUnfortunately · 28/03/2020 22:14

Tank

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2020 22:21

John Burn-Murdoch @jburnmurdoch
NEW: Saturday 28 March update of coronavirus mortality trajectories

• UK passes Italy, 2nd only to Spain for deaths at this stage of outbreak
• US deaths doubling every 3 days, curve keeps steepening
• India tracking US

All countries’ death toll trajectories:
• German deaths curve still tracking Italy.
Low fatality rate in Germany masks high death numbers
• Australia added. So far on a flatter curve than other Anglophone countries, but very early days

Death curves in subnational regions:

• London climbs sharply. 96 more deaths announced today, curve heading towards Wuhan
• Louisiana & New Jersey deaths doubling every 2 days
• New York, Catalonia, Madrid, Paris the urban epicentres

Latest case trajectories for major countries:

• Turkey continues to look bad. Setting the pace for confirmed cases
• UK cases curve shows no signs of flattening

www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest

Worried About Coronavirus- thread 34
Worried About Coronavirus- thread 34
Worried About Coronavirus- thread 34
RedToothBrush · 28/03/2020 22:49

amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/28/coronavirus-intensive-care-uk-patients-50-per-cent-survival-rate?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true
Covid-19 patients in UK intensive care have 50% survival rate
Findings of new report raise concerns about how effective new facilities will be

The mortality rate for patients put in intensive care after being infected with Covid-19 is running at close to 50%, a report has revealed.

Data from the Intensive Care National Audit and Research Centre (ICNARC) showed that of 165 patients treated in critical care in England, Wales and Northern Ireland since the end of February, 79 died, while 86 survived and were discharged. The figures were taken from an audit of 775 people who have been or are in critical care with the disease, across 285 intensive care units. The remaining 610 patients continue to receive intensive care.

I believe the percentage of deaths in Wuhan of those who were classed as critical was 67% if memory serves me correctly.

“The truth is that quite a lot of these individuals [in critical care] are going to die anyway and there is a fear that we are just ventilating them for the sake of it, for the sake of doing something for them, even though it won’t be effective. That’s a worry,” one doctor said.

The report also found that though the majority of those who have died from coronavirus across the UK were over 70, nine of the 79 who died in intensive care were aged between 16 and 49, as were 28 of the 86 who survived.

This also tallies reasonably closely with same Wuhan study. Those who survived critical care were much more likely to be younger.

I'd speculate that is also why we aren't seeing a huge spike in deaths in Italy compared with previously yearly data. They are choosing patients who are likely to die due to other reasons not to be ventilated when there are shortages.

The averaging effect of data means its masked more. And any spoke will be minimal but there will be excess deaths now. We might find there is a deficit in deaths later in the year as those expected to die have been dead sometime.

The audit suggested that men are at much higher risk from the virus – seven in ten of all ICU patients were male, while 30% of men in critical care were under 60, compared to just 15% of women. Excess weight also appears to be a significant risk factor; over 70% of patients were overweight, obese or clinically obese on the body mass index scale.

This matches what we know from Italy, plus if you have heart issues or diabetes or health problems generally you are more likely to be overweight.

As one of the most overweight nation in Europe you would expect the UK to have a higher rate of deaths as a result, even if our government restrictions are equally as good as elsewhere.

And as one of the countries with the worst obseity problems in the world, you would expect the effect in the US to be even worse.

I believe Birmingham is having particular problems: some of this is due to cultural issues and some may be to do with poorer underlying health in some communities. An MP tweeted yesterday that a large number of elderly Muslims and Sihks were continuing to pray in mosques and gurdwara despite government advise and this was now having a devastating affect. There are also higher levels of diabetes in British Pakistani communities which doesn't help. The city has become a particular covid-19 hotspot.

So I'm going to throw a little caution in the mix here about the success / failure and timing of restrictions with regards to the uk. We may not have the most elderly population compared to Italy for example, but we may have other vulnerabilities which might mean our death toll is high.

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2020 23:04

Lockdown til June.

Abortion services at point of collapse. Women can't have partners before or after giving birth.

Police use black dye at beauty spot to deter visitors.

Worried About Coronavirus- thread 34
AvocadoOwl · 28/03/2020 23:05

Interesting stuff Red. The obesity stuff particularly. I suppose we all know the health risks involved with obesity but that figure is still quite shocking.

Rocketmam · 28/03/2020 23:07

Very shit about the obesity Sad.

I keep comfort eating! That stops tomorrow...

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2020 23:11

amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/28/families-borrowing-buy-food-week-of-lockdown?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet&__twitter_impression=true
Families borrowing to buy food a week into UK lockdown
Food Foundation warns of crisis as YouGov poll reports 1.5m people worrying about hunger

More than 1.5 million adults in Britain say they cannot obtain enough food. Half of the YouGov poll sample reported that they were self-isolating, and 53% of NHS workers were worried about getting food.

Half of parents on low incomes with children eligible for free school meals said they had not yet received any substitute meals to keep their children fed, despite government promises to provide food vouchers or parcels. Around 830,000 children are therefore likely to be going without daily sustenance.

And

The scale of financial and food insecurity is revealed by the numbers reporting that they had already had to borrow money to survive, just a week into the lockdown. Of those surveyed, 6% had taken out personal loans. Households with children were two and a half times more likely to have borrowed than those without.

SistemaAddict · 28/03/2020 23:20

I've got nothing left to comfort eat now. Chick peas just won't comfort like chocolate. I've been having porridge for lunch as we've loads of oats. The Mexicana cheese was missing from my delivery and my favourite lunch is a bagel with Mexicana cheese and vegan mayo, and lentil crisps. I miss my bagel lunches.

I'm worried. Not massively so but definitely anxious. I feel ok until I read the news or this thread and the reality hits. I've been at home for two weeks now and it's been fine as we've had everything we've needed. But I'm wondering how long this will go on for and how long I will realistically need to stay in for. I'm technically in the 12 week group but can't distance from my children at home. They won't be going anywhere anyway so I guess that doesn't matter. I've told ds today that as I'm not spending as much money as normal that I'll save it up and we will go to our favourite seaside place once that's possible. He was really happy with that. All 3 dc have coped great with 2 weeks at home. Its the not knowing when it will end that makes it so difficult. And the fear of catching it and dying. Ds hasn't got anyone else but me to look after him.

Brewhot chocolate to comfort for all

HeIenaDove · 28/03/2020 23:21
Petiolaris · 28/03/2020 23:27

UK passes Italy, 2nd only to Spain for deaths at this stage of outbreak
Well that’s just great. And there was me thinking we’d dropped behind Italy and our numbers didn’t seem to be rising so fast.

SistemaAddict · 28/03/2020 23:29

It's worrying about the FSM children. I've been sent vouchers but can't get out to spend them or online to get things delivered. The high school are sending a voucher weekly but primary have sent for the rest of term. Some schools are doing a meal collection service but if people are symptomatic and isolating that's no good. The vouchers are general store ones too and can be spent on anything. There'll be parents who don't use them for the intended purpose. So many vulnerable children will fall through the cracks.

HeIenaDove · 28/03/2020 23:29

Doesnt help that people are having to eat what they can get.

The mini Wispas are from before Christmas.

Oakmaiden · 28/03/2020 23:34

UK passes Italy, 2nd only to Spain for deaths at this stage of outbreak

Only just, though.

The UK passed 10 deaths 17 days ago. We now have 1019 deaths.
17 days after Italy passed 10 deaths they had 1016 deaths.

So not a statistically significant difference- - other than to say we are still very much on the same curve.

Petiolaris · 28/03/2020 23:37

news.sky.com/story/amp/coronavirus-italy-becoming-impatient-with-lockdown-and-social-unrest-is-brewing-11965122

Shit. People in Italy threatening to riot because they’re sick of being locked down, and forming groups to raid supermarkets. Yesterday a Sainsbury store in Sunderland Tyne and Wear was ram raided. I’m more afraid of civil unrest than of the virus.

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2020 23:43

Obseity rates by country

1 Nauru 61.0%
2 Cook Islands 55.9%
3 Palau 55.3%
4 Marshall Islands 52.9%
5 Tuvalu 51.6%
6 Niue 50.0%
7 Tonga 48.2%
8 Samoa 47.3%
9 Kiribati 46.0%
10 Micronesia (Federated States of) 45.8%
11 Kuwait 37.9%
12 United States of America 36.2%

And some selected countries from the list

14 Saudi Arabia 35.4%
17 Turkey 32.1%
18 Egypt 32.0%
20 United Arab Emirates 31.7%
22 New Zealand 30.8%
23 Iraq 30.4%
26 Canada 29.4%
27 Australia 29.0%
28 Mexico 28.9%
30 Argentina 28.3%
30 South Africa 28.3%
33 United Kingdom 27.8%
38 Algeria 27.4%
40 Tunisia 26.9%
41 Hungary 26.4%
43 Lithuania 26.3%
44 Israel 26.1%
44 Morocco 26.1%
47 Iran (Islamic Republic of) 25.8%
51 Ireland 25.3%
53 Bulgaria 25.0%
62 Spain 23.8%
67 Norway 23.1%
67 Poland 23.1%
67 Russian Federation 23.1%
74 Luxembourg 22.6%
78 Germany 22.3%
80 Finland 22.2%
81 Belgium 22.1%
81 Brazil 22.1%
83 Iceland 21.9%=
87 France 21.6%
99 Netherlands 20.4%
100 Paraguay 20.3%
105 Austria 20.1%
106 Italy 19.9%
112 Switzerland 19.5%
125 Malaysia 15.6%

140 Thailand 10.0%
148 Pakistan 8.6%
163 Indonesia 6.9%
166 Philippines 6.4%
168 China 6.2%
169 Singapore 6.1%
183 Republic of Korea 4.7%
185 Japan 4.3%
187 Cambodia 3.9%
187 India 3.9%

Now I'm going to ponder about the correlation between masks and no masks suggestion and the graph shown earlier on the thread today.

And to ask you to imagine the same graph in relation to obseity levels. Would you have a similar graph?

The stuff I saw about that masks graph on twitter pointed out that in Singapore they don't wear masks in public. Which kind of blew the theory out of the water to me.

I've also pondered a lot about Japan which has surprisingly few restrictions atm but a death rate which is surprisingly low.

I think we could be looking at obseity and age being particular risks to a general population.

This is merely a hypothesis but I would suggest we should consider it as much as we consider the masks no masks one...

EmeraldShamrock · 28/03/2020 23:46

Did you see the Russian doctor on the BBC news in a packed church, she claimed you can't catch the virus in gods house.
So many deaths today people still not getting it. Those charts are terrifying.
My chest is tight from anxiety.

Oakmaiden · 28/03/2020 23:47

Petiolaris - the specific example they give is in Sicily, where as they say there is a lot of organised crime trying to take advantage of the situation.

However, I do think our Government need to think very carefully about food. It has the potential to turn into a crisis all of its own, because even if, as the Government and supermarkets say, the food supply chain is still operating as well, that isn't translating into people being able to get food into their homes. It is a huge problem, that simply saying "try to use online delivery" is completely failing to acknowledge, let alone address.

And food vendors are starting to close their doors now as well. Our local bakery has closed and isn't intending to reopen whilst the lockdown continues, the local market (which has butchers, greengrocers and bakers) is supposed to be closing next week, and our fruit and veg man (who delivers) has said he isn't sure he will be able to get hold of supplies next week to deliver. Except eggs (cos he has his own chickens)

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2020 23:56

The UK has a particular issue with food because a) greater inequality than a lot of European countries b) we are an island c) we import a significant percentage of our food d) we have a cooking skills issue because we eat more processed / prepackaged ready meals than a lot more than our European neighbours e) our supply chains go via processing for said products meaning they are set up for wholesale - but if one ingredient is missing this means that food isn't produced for public consumption f) we eat out more than we did so again food going via wholesale routes g) we rely much more on just in time supply which means there is much less slack in the system which is why we've had bigger supply chain shocks than elsewhere h) our buying and cooking habits mean we find it harder to change to an alternative way if doing things - we are fussier in many respects I) we are dependent on seasonal workers from abroad for our harvest and we already had issues with that due to Brexit J) farm labour shortages from Brexit are leading farmers who are planting now to consider only partly planting crops to avoid having crop they can't harvest which they've invested in. K) Brexit and trade deal expirary issues might mean we struggle even more or face bigger trade tariffs than elsewhere on food

The whole thing adds up to a problem which is much bigger than we realise.

The press conference the other day where it was said we were having someone appointed to consider 'food security' made me sit up and take notice.

The letter Johnson is sending out about things going to get harder in coming weeks. He's damn right.

Keep paying attention to what's going on here and abroad is all I'm going to say...

HeIenaDove · 28/03/2020 23:58

So if there is food insecurity eating healthily will get harder.

Petiolaris · 28/03/2020 23:59

My local butcher decided to close but hundreds of people begged him to stay open because the supermarkets have no meat and there are no delivery slots. So he’s closed his doors but is still doing deliveries because people are desperate. I’ve seen on Facebook that people have raided local allotments looking for eggs and even some of the chickens have been stolen, probably for meat. And a friend who does deliveries said he’s beginning to get nervous unpacking groceries outside people’s houses. Some people don’t have money for food while others simply can’t get what they need from the shops - how long till they start mugging the Asda delivery guy?