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Wait a second ... how do we do custody exchanges?!

299 replies

PicsInRed · 23/03/2020 20:35

Nothing in Boris' message about travel to exchange children for contact.

What is the legal position here?

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Thatnovembernight · 24/03/2020 08:45

@Happygirl79 Gove has since clarified that he was incorrect and that children under 18 can go between their parents houses as outlined.

Happygirl79 · 24/03/2020 08:45

Wow. Michael Gove now apologised and said he got it wrong on Good Morning Britain
Hes said this on BBC TV straight after
Now he said its OK for parents to continue shared access

Happygirl79 · 24/03/2020 08:46

@Thatnovembernight
Yes thank you you're correct

Vinylsamso · 24/03/2020 08:54

You’re all absolute sheep. Any Mother who watched this and thought “Oh, Doctor Hilary Jones or Michael fucking Grove says I can’t see my kid for 3 weeks so I guess I wont” is absolutely fucking crazy.

Over my dead body. I’d be imprisoned before that happened.

AnneLovesGilbert · 24/03/2020 08:59

I’d be imprisoned before that happened

Not sure how that would benefit your children. Looks like normal contact changes can occur though, barring further confusion from clueless ministers.

Notredamn · 24/03/2020 09:31

Pics proceed as usual, it's as simple or straightforward as you want it to be. Proceed like you usually do re your contact arrangements.

Xenia · 24/03/2020 09:31

Yes, it s now clear (a footnote in this document - assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/874738/Full_guidance_on_staying_at_home_and_away_from_others.pdf )

However the problem will be that some fathers will pretend they have corona symptoms and keep children for much longer than planned on a self isolating basis (as indeed will some mothers) so parents may need to get evidence from a nurse they hire to do a visit to take temperatures - it is going to be very complex.

TheClitterati · 24/03/2020 09:36

twitter.com/bbcbreakfast/status/1242361443254775809?s=21

Gove correcting his earlier fuck up.

Notredamn · 24/03/2020 09:37

Very true Xenia abusers will always find ways to be abusive.

Inapickleortwo · 24/03/2020 09:52

@Notredamn @Xenia it's clear from a number of threads and comments some people are already using the coronavirus as a way to stop the other parent having contact. Last night it was how the gov had not mentioned childcare handovers so it wasn't happening so tough to the other parent and now they've updated it, it's how they won't let said child go because of ABC.

DP and DSD Mum don't have the best of relationship. All contact, pickups, arrangements had to go through me at her request but since we've gone into a crisis as a country, they have actually begun parenting together because they BOTH care about the safety, health and well-being of their daughter. If anything some of these comments I've been reading just show how a child can and is used as a 'weapon' for point scoring.

themuminator · 24/03/2020 11:28

My ex has already chosen to be a dick regarding this in communication. Hmm

I tried to open a discussion last night when there wasn't much clarity, just asking for his opinions and saying we should wait for further clarity, and then this morning once the amendment to the guidance had been given he chose to use it as some sort of blame game.

Dicks will always be dicks. Abusers will take this opportunity.

PicsInRed · 24/03/2020 11:32

Inapickleortwo

If one party is abusive, then sensible working together will NEVER happen, no matter how hard the other tries. You can't force "normal" on the pathological.

Obviously there would never be an issue between 2 normal people who now have strong feelings of dislike for each other. They're still normal, reasonable people. It's the nutty abusers who are the issue.

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Curious78 · 24/03/2020 11:45

Thank god that was officially cleared, was starting to feel like a terrible mother by some of the comments on this thread yesterday.

RowanMumsnet · 24/03/2020 12:50

Hello

We're seeing if we can get someone from the government to expand a bit on the guidance. In the meantime, if it's helpful, here's some advice we've been sent by legal chambers 4PB - it seems to mostly apply to parents with a court order:

Jonathan Evans, barrister at 4PB:

Fears over coronavirus are already affecting Child Arrangement Orders made by the Family Courts. Parents must comply with court orders unless there is a reasonable excuse not to and failure to comply with an order can amount to a contempt of court.

There have been three primary categories of enquiry: First, where one parent lives abroad and regularly flies over for contact with their children. Current travel advice is preventing many parents from seeing their children.

Second is where a primary caregiver fails to make the children available for contact. Either because they or the children have had genuine symptoms, or due to a fear that the other parent will retain the children, or because the primary caregiver uses the current situation as an excuse to stop contact.

The third category of enquiry is where a parent has contact with their children and retains them, saying that they or the child displays symptoms.

The advice to any parent must be that orders should be complied with unless to do so would put the child, or others at risk. Routine is particularly important for children who are seeing their school lives disrupted. Handovers can still be effected, even with current guidance on social distancing. If it is impossible to promote face-to-face contact, parents should try and think flexibly and include regular video contact to maintain relationships as best they can. Clear and early communication between parents, potentially using third parties, should be encouraged.

There are likely to be evidential difficulties in proving whether parental concerns over coronavirus are genuine, due to difficulty in attending a medical professional. A court may give parents the benefit of the doubt, potentially leaving the system open to abuse. However, courts will also consider a parent’s past record of promoting contact as part of the overall factual matrix.

Courts remain functioning and are dealing with many hearings remotely, so applications can still be made. A judge is likely to be critical of any parent that manipulates this situation to their advantage. Therefore what may appear a short-term strategic advantage, may well backfire in the longer-term.

PicsInRed · 24/03/2020 13:02

Thank you MMHQ. There also should be included guidance for those with domestic violence concerns where "safe places" are used for exchange - e.g. public places.

Contact is regularly ordered where domestic violence is present and therefore the guidance should be mindful that direct house to house exchange won't be feasible or safe in many cases.

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Xenia · 24/03/2020 13:58

Very useful guidance from the barrister above. One reason a lot of justice system workers are required to continue working is to ensure law and order continues to be maintained and the rule of law and so court orders can be enforced.

Crabonastick · 25/03/2020 08:13

I don’t agree that the above advise was particularly useful. To me it has quite a ‘women- don’t use Coronavirus as an excuse to frustrate contact’ tone. It would have been more balanced if he also addressed non resident parents pushing for contact to take place when circumstances dictate it should be held off for a few weeks (vulnerable parent/family member in the household/symptoms etc).

KatySun · 25/03/2020 09:48

Crabonastick indeed, if this is the tone, there will be people breaking the self-isolation and lockdown rules because they are worried about legal consequences or scared of their ex.

And please

KatySun · 25/03/2020 09:49

Sorry about the random ‘and please’ Hmm - am not well and that was another train of thought, not relevant here.

Crabonastick · 25/03/2020 11:30

@KatySun I feel this advice gives ammunition to abusive ex partners to use coercive control against their ex partners with the threat of legal retribution; when they they should be self isolating/isolating the child.

newmumintown · 25/03/2020 18:01

My abusive -and currently escalating-ex has been on the phone in the last few days to the kids talking about going camping, building barricades, electrifying fences, homeschooling, stockpiling, building homemade weapons to 'defend their property'. Due to this (and other recent events such as assault against me, badmouthing me to the children etc), my solicitor has suggested I don't agree to any more contact at the moment. We are currently self isolating until the weekend, but then am I really supposed to send the children for their 'weekend with daddy', when he is clearly intending on keeping them longer? This guidance makes it seem like I would be unreasonable for keeping them home safely with me. I feel sick.

Enough4me · 25/03/2020 23:38

@newmumintown don't send them as this is not in their best interest. Skype instead. Keep records of his erratic suggestions in case he goes to court.

When he becomes reasonable again you will need to show willingness to facilitate access.

Windywuss · 01/04/2020 18:30

Well my situation has just become complicated. Ex has just told me he's at his girlfriend's house therefore breaking lockdown rules. She has 2 kids which go back and forth to their dad's.

I'm not happy to send ds for contact. He's a liar and I don't trust him not to ignore me and take him there anyway. But even if he has him at his house and keeps going back and forth to gfs, that's not right either.

I'm asthmatic and have high BP. I'm being careful. Wwyd? Sad

chocolatesaltyballs22 · 02/04/2020 09:09

100% don't send him based on what you've just said @windywuss. You can't trust him to observe the guidelines.

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