Low death rate in Germany

[Malteserdiet]

Germany is traditionally known as a nation that follows rules and runs a very efficient system. Italy, France, Spain and the UK less so - although of course all have their own positive merits.

Could this be a factor as to why they so far have a relatively low death rate? As of last night, Germany had over 9000 cases and 24 deaths. The UK has just over 2000 confirmed cases and yet already 71 deaths.

Perhaps we all need to take heed of the German people’s willingness to listen to and follow their government’s advice and do the same here to help reduce the impact of this virus.

If this is indeed a correct assessment of what’s going on then I would urge Boris to make this connection in his next speech to the UK public and hope that we can achieve the same.

I don't understand , I've never in the least been made to feel that any appointment i've had with a Dr has been wasting their time. I think thats a very antagonistic approach to have and not remotely helpful to bandy around on a forum under these circumstances

thanks @anothernotherone - I've been looking at Johns Hopkins data

Germany has a superior health system to the UK. As do the Scandinavian countries, which most likely aren't seeing many deaths either.
Another factor that may be coming into play is that the number of smokers - especially long term, heavy smokers. A high percentage of the older generation in China, Spain and Italy may well fall into this category.

Smoking very popular in Germany too.

Yy Brefugee.

6 weeks' full pay when sick is pretty much universal as an employee, then your health insurance kicks in and pays I think 70% for over a year. As a self-employed person, my health insurance doesn't cover the first 6 weeks if I were ill but I would then get the 70% thing. No such thing as the draconian sickness policies there are in the UK, either - if you're ill, you're ill and you don't even have to tell your employer what's wrong. You'd only lose your job if you were really unable to perform it over a very extended period. The idea of treating genuine sickness absence as a disciplinary matter is utterly foreign to Germans.

Yes, smoking definitely isn't a factor. The figures are still (too) high here, though there is a lot a regional variation and very few teens are starting these days.

@anothernotherone I haven't seen anything like that here yet. Saxony doesn't have as many cases yet as in the west, though.

@user68901 It is not that doctors make you feel like you shouldn't waste their time. It's that appointments are so hard to come by in the UK, and the system is known to be overstretched. And maybe the British attitude of not wanting to annoy anyone or be a burden. I've seen people in the UK really in pain but not wanting to go to the doctor's.

Smoking is certainly a factor.

Brefugee I think I read about the one in your area. They came in for a lot of criticism for going to Fasnacht didn't they? I felt it was a bit unfair, as really nobody was taking it seriously at that point. It's hard to remember back over the last couple of weeks and realise how quickly it's escalated.

I noticed someone else reported having trouble getting a test - AFAIK it's fairly easy here (we only have 4 confirmed cases in our Landkreis, but there is a testing station at the ready, if you report symptoms to your GP) but it'll vary in different regions because the Bundesländer and even down at Landkreis level (1-200,000 people) they organise things in their own way.

Brefugee - Netherlands are reporting a high level not a low level. Now 56 deaths so higher than the UK proportionate to population.

It simply is not as clear as good v bad health systems at this point.

No idea but have been wondering the same thing!

Def still a lot of smokers in Germany (when compared to UK) but no idea in relation to Italy/China etc.

@toomuchtooold - yep he went to the Sitzung and spoke to loads of people. What we have here is an area which looks, on paper and from the numberplates, like the size of a small city but is in effect loads and loads and loads of small villages/towns where everyone knows everyone else. I felt really bad for them all.

@paddlingwhenIshouldbeworking - yes, sorry you're right. But up to last week they were reporting very low levels and locally (we're on the border and many people cross over on a daily basis for work or uni or sport) there was a lot of pushback if they saw a German car. Now it's not s bad.

I was in China in the 2nd half of November (I know - I'm really wondering if I've been a carrier) because i work for a Chinese company, and i was in Italy a day or two before it all got serious there (in Milan) but so far so good for me and everyone i've been in contact with.

In China there are quite a lot of smokers AFAIK in the older generations but not women and younger men.

(off topic: is there a thread where Germans/people in Germany hang out?)

There is an article in the Times today on this very issue, can't see the conclusions as it's behind the paywall but I'd be very curious to know.

@user68901 let's hope there is some consistency internationally though as otherwise it skews the data. Most of the victims in Italy have been described (by the protezione civile) as dying "with not from" Coronavirus but are included in the coronavirus statistics.

Virologists are perplexed as to why Germany’s stated death rate from Covid-19 is far lower than in other countries.

Germany has 9,877 confirmed cases as of today with 26 deaths, representing a fatality rate of 0.26 percent, compared rates of 3.7 per cent in the UK and 7.9 per cent in Italy.

Richard Pebody, the High Threat Pathogens Infectious Hazard Management team leader at the World Health Organisation Regional Office for Europe, said the difference could be due to differences in counting cases or in the actual quality of treatment.

“We must of course examine whether these differences are real,” he said.

Germany has ramped up its measures but the restrictions in force at present are less draconian than those in countries such as Italy, France, Spain and Austria.

It prides itself on its health service. Germany has a dense network of regional laboratories that enabled the country to test relatively extensively from an early stage. They have so far conducted over 100,000 tests. Many young people who were in contact with infected people were quickly tested and isolated, even if they showed no symptoms.

Germany also has one of the world’s highest concentrations of hospitals — 1,900 for a population of 82 million — and authorities have announced this week to double the capacity of intensive care beds which currently total 28,000. The Berlin city authorities said yesterday they plan to erect a 1,000-bed hospital in the west of the city, and plans are under way to requisition hotels and public halls to set up corona treatment stations.

Also, despite the federal structure that lessens the power of the central government to take drastic measures, steps were taken fairly early to shut some major events including the ITB international tourism fair in Berlin in late February when there were hardly any cases in the country of coronavirus.

Last week two Italian MEPs from the far-right Brothers of Italy Party cast doubt on the German case figures and demanded the introduction of uniform standards for testing and case reporting.

In a written question to the European Commission submitted in the European Parliament, they asked why Germans were “quasi immune” to the disease.

They added: “There is a suspicion that people in Germany are indeed falling ill and dying from Covid-19, but that the German authorities do not know this — or that they are not saying it,” they wrote.

The president of the German Robert Koch Institute, Lothar Wieler, assumes that the number of coronavirus deaths in Germany and Italy will not vary over the long term.

“We will of course have deaths in the older population in Germany,” Mr Wieler said last week.

Times article copied and pasted above.

Also in Germany here and people are super picky about cleanliness. I was so surprised when I visited my office in the U.K. and how different things looked. People piling and mugs up at the sink, half eaten cereal left on the desk, dust gathering on the monitors. Shared toilet for an entire floor of several companies. Same feeling walking around supermarkets, restaurants etc. I'm not saying we brits are dirty, just that Germans are super clean.
A lot of cases, especially the first ones, were linked to a soldier, a fire department, and a karneval celebration. Then a lot of people returning from vacations in Italy. Aside from the karneval celebration (people of any age will party during this time) it also seems the virus came in touch with a lot of young and fit people.
Whereas in other countries, an elderly person might be picking it up from the handle of her supermarket trolley.
Here in the supermarket I saw people wiping down the trolley after use, quite early on.

@cologne4711 Thank you for your detailed post. I don't buy the Italian MEP's comments that verge on conspiracy theory. A country that is covering up the truth will almost certainly not be separating covid-19 patients from other patients, resulting in more widespread infections and a sharp increase in mortality. If this was the case it would be in the news pretty quickly. Some towns in Lombardy are losing an entire generation, with local newspaper obituaries increasing ten fold. The Germans are doing something right. My suspicion is that, as @Neoflex has said, they are much more scrupulous about cleanliness than most countries.

Brefugee there used to be a very active thread in Living Overseas, but it faded away a year or so ago. Still Living Overseas is the section to look in (maybe start a new thread there). There are absolutely loads of MNers in Germany, and a lot of Germans living in the UK use MN too.

Anecdotally my German friends have been avoiding their elderly relatives as long as we have (in central Italy). I also know two German families self-isolating as of last week because they came into contact with someone who is being tested and awaiting results (taking 4-5 days so far) rather than confirmed as having the virus. So maybe the message got through sooner and people are more cautious.

The hypochondria, quick resort to medication and a general culture of frequently seeing a (specialist) doctor for treatment as soon as you start feeling unwell are typical in France and Italy too in my experience, I don't know about other countries but I wonder if Britain not Germany is the exception in that regard.

How common is intergenerational living in Germany?

German journalists say it’s because those with serious underlying conditions are not being counted. If they have COPD and catch Covid, then pass away, COPD is listed as the cause.

This is from The Times article cited above. The article does not give a conclusion as to why Germany seems to have a lower death rate. It states that Germany has adopted less draconian measures than Italy. Germany has an excellent health care system, but the reason for the lower death rate has not been identified yet. Interesting.

Germany has 9,877 confirmed cases as of today with 26 deaths, representing a fatality rate of 0.26 percent, compared rates of 3.7 per cent in the UK and 7.9 per cent in Italy. Richard Pebody, the High Threat Pathogens Infectious Hazard Management team leader at the World Health Organisation Regional Office for Europe, said the difference could be due to differences in counting cases or in the actual quality of treatment.“We must of course examine whether these differences are real,” he said. Germany has ramped up its measures but the restrictions in force at present are less draconian than those in countries such as Italy, France, Spain and Austria