Low death rate in Germany

[Malteserdiet]

Germany is traditionally known as a nation that follows rules and runs a very efficient system. Italy, France, Spain and the UK less so - although of course all have their own positive merits.

Could this be a factor as to why they so far have a relatively low death rate? As of last night, Germany had over 9000 cases and 24 deaths. The UK has just over 2000 confirmed cases and yet already 71 deaths.

Perhaps we all need to take heed of the German people’s willingness to listen to and follow their government’s advice and do the same here to help reduce the impact of this virus.

If this is indeed a correct assessment of what’s going on then I would urge Boris to make this connection in his next speech to the UK public and hope that we can achieve the same.

The attitude in Germany is that its shockingly irresponsible not to seek medical attention early in order to stop things getting worse, and that doctors would rather see a patient unnecessarily than not see someone who needs intervention.

This is very interesting!

Yep, in Germany we all pay 15.5% of our income just for state healthcare.

Thats not national insurance equivalent or tax - those are seperate in addition.

They are testing people with very mild or no symptoms so they have more confirmed but very mild cases. Then presumably they are catching people who are likely to badly affected early on.

The UK death rates are completely unknown at the moment. We know how many people have died, but nobody has a scooby what % of cases they represent, because we've no idea how many people have it or have had it.

Another is right. We had a German doctor come to work at our local practice and he was so thorough and diligent it was amazing. I went to see him about a concern and he referred me to a specialist immediately and asked me about related issues which I hadn’t even bothered to bring up.

Was also absolutely fantastic when FiL was dying at our home. Came out so many times, nothing was too much trouble. He was pretty appalled by the state of social care too.

Of course word has got around and now he’s booked up months in advance at the surgery, it’s impossible to get to see him.

DD is German and we were discussing this last night. He thinks it’s down to the following
Excellent health care system
Hypochondria
Adherence to rules around hand washing, contact etc

And to donquioxotedelamancha do you think that’s funny? Oh look, someone mentioned Germany, let’s allude to the one dark time in their history - grow the fuck up

Germany has a better health care system than the uk because they pay fot it with insurance.

We have the NHS, which is free but shit.

Yes, testing is much more widespread from what I hear. Many testing stations have been set up and I understand that testing is taking place at airports and border crossings as a matter of course in some states.

I don't know about the willingness to follow orders, however. I read a newspaper report just yesterday about 'Corona partys' in Berlin. . . Berlin, I think, has taken (as ever) a more laid-back approach to closure of public spaces, whereas other states have taken measures to close public spaces much quicker than here in the UK.

I believe there is a national plan to close all shops other than supermarkets at the weekend, so the government must feel that legislation is necessary to keep people from carrying on with their usual habits.

I would guess that Germany had tested more people and that the UK had more infections in reality. Also we know they have more intensive care beds if that is a factor

I'm waiting for someone to come along and claim that Italy and Spain have better facilities because they spend more on health.

It won't be long...

The percentage of deaths is skewed because we don’t know the true number of people that have had it. 71 out of 2000 confirmed is quite a high rate of about 4% but 71 out of 55000 is a much lower percentage at under 0.2%

@Hoppinggreen yes, I also forgot about the tendency towards hypochondria. . . guilty! This probably helps with detection! If I had the opportunity to get tested, I would do it.

The UK will have far more cases than what's in the press.

Loads of people are self-isolating with symptoms and will never get tested.

I think that Germans also have a tendency to hypochondria, (no one really needs to have a look at their poo every day) so are probably taking non contact, handwashing etc a lot more seriously.

Plus their health service is run more efficiently and is better resourced , probably because it costs the average German citizen proportionately more than our poorly funded NHS. You get what you pay for, as we are finding out.

Germany's critical cases also appear to be very low. Currently reporting as 2. Don't know how accurate this is or how often this particular column is updated. Could be that there's a different age group being affected just now as well? Source: Worldometer.

It can't be because of more ICU beds, as UK deaths are not (yet) due to a lack of ICU beds.
Same with ventilators (yet).

I'm not sure exactly what the great German health system is doing to keep death numbers lower than UK at this point? is there some intervention Germans are getting that UK cases are not? I don't think so.

Except more testing.

Most Germans dont go to work or school when sick, if they go to work or school sick they get sent home.

One thing I've just noticed - German employees take a lot of sick leave generally;

"The number of days lost to sickness reached a new high in 2018, the latest health report from the health insurance company BKK has demonstrated. On average, each employee in Germany stayed home for 18,5 days in 2018 due to illness."

"While the study cited a “pronounced flu outbreak” as the main reason for the record value, it also noted that the rate of absenteeism has been steadily rising over the past 10 years, with the exception of a few minor fluctuations."

"In 2008, the average number of sick days taken by each employee in Germany was 12,6 days per year, meaning that the figure has increased by an incredible 46,8 percent."

"In a nationwide comparison, Saxony-Anhalt is the leader of the pack, with an average of 24,4 sick days taken per employee per year. Thuringia and Brandenburg are also significantly above average when it comes to absenteeism, taking an average of 24,2 sick days per year. Workers in Berlin take an average of 21,1 days - 2,6 more than the national average."

"Absenteeism was lowest in Baden-Württemberg (15,5 days), Hamburg (16,0) and Bavaria (16,6), which coincidentally are the states that command some of the highest salaries in Germany."

www.iamexpat.de/career/employment-news/number-sick-days-germany-reached-record-high-2018

UK stats from 2017;

"Sick days taken by UK workers fall to lowest rate on record."
"ONS says average in 2017 was 4.1 days but experts warn more people are working when ill."

www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jul/30/sick-days-taken-uk-workers-fall-lowest-rate-on-record

Just to add, German health insurance also routinely covers inoculation for pneumonia for at-risk groups. My parents, both in their 80s get this + regular boosters. So even if you are unlucky enough to contract Covid 19, the progression to severe lung infection might be milder or halted altogether (disclaimer: this is pure speculation on my part, not a medical professional).

The german health system is expensive, but it works. If you have underlying conditions, you will know about them, and they will be treated quickly and efficiently. Going to get stuff diagnosed is encouraged.
The uk health system is free (i’m on a good salary -my national insurance contributions NOW are about the same than my health insurance alone was as a PhD student with a part time job!).
To get anything diagnosed will take you ages, and you are made to feel bad about burdening the holy NHS with it.
The results are big differences in the efficiency of the systems

Germany doesn’t always attribute deaths to CV in patients with other serious/life-limiting illnesses.

@Clavinova yes, somebody bringing their bugs into the office is mostly considered to be inconsiderate and downright stupid. In the uk the same thing is considered to be admirable....

Look at Czech rep.
Around 464 cases and all very well managed.
No death..
Also they got treatment for Covid19 - will be using Remdesivir.
Sadly this drug it’s not licensed in the UK, but Czechs managed to get it licences and will be giving it to the critical patients.
Also- they do not choose who they will let die, anyone has equal chance for equal treatment, they try their best to save everyone.
Well done to them.
U.K. is meant to be rich country and look what’s happening?
Czech is always classified here as poor Eastern Europe country and manage to get thousands of ventilators, full quarantine, Remderesin.
Also everyone has to wear face masks in public now.
Schools shut since two weeks ago.
And here?
Absolutely ridiculous.
I was today in Sainsbury’s- people coughing absolutely everywhere, seemed like no one is bothered at all.
No wonder it’s spreads like a fire!

2000 confirmed cases and yet already 71 deaths.

they are not testing in the uk, unless you are in hospital. So the true number in Uk is estimated at being in 50,000

There is also the factor that many people with mild symptons don't even realise they have it, so the death rate is completely unknown in every country