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Covid

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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Boris is trying to kill off the old and infirm

233 replies

CoronLona · 13/03/2020 21:53

"you will loose loved ones". Get over it. We are not taking any action to stop it. The old and vulnerable will die. 80% of us will catch coronavirus.

I do not like these messages. It's like he doesn't care about the elderly or vulnerable at all.

Is he trying to kill them off to make some savings in the NHS? It certainly feels like it.

AIBU to make this assumption?

OP posts:
JeepersC · 14/03/2020 09:52

I don’t understand how many think we can lockdown for 2 months but then be ok after. Yes we may slow the rates of Coronavirus but we won’t eradicate it and now we are still dealing with Coronavirus with mass unemployment and poverty to also deal with surely. And we will then be dealing with more Coronavirus cases during winter.

Do you think 'business as usual' is going to prevent any negative effects on the economy?

JeepersC · 14/03/2020 09:53

This is not a thread about malaria. This is a thread about Boris and Covid-19.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 14/03/2020 09:55

Jeepers, in the kindest possible way, you need to step back from these threads.

JeepersC · 14/03/2020 09:55

Clearly Brits won't succumb to coronavirus at the same rate as other countries. Therefore, it's perfectly logical to allow everyone to contract it and sink or swim - survive or die. No point worrying about it! When it's your time - off you pop!

JeepersC · 14/03/2020 09:56

Jeepers, in the kindest possible way, you need to step back from these threads.

Why? Because I'm not on bended knee praising Boris the Great?

thewinkingprawn · 14/03/2020 09:57

I think Mumsnet needs to act in a more responsible way and stop this spread of hysteria. The government (and I am no fan usually) are acting on actual, scientific and medical advice. No one will know who was ‘right’ until this is over but all they can do is act on professional advice. You lot spreading hysteria is ridiculous and irresponsible at best.

Babytigerrr · 14/03/2020 09:57

If what italys doing is right, why have their cases continued to grow? Or will we only see "results" after a very prolonged period of lockdown?

Imo months of lockdown like a pp said will cause more deaths for different reasons. Id rather children didnt starve to death tbh.

I have never been a fan of boris. I have never and likely would never vote conservative. However, this is not down to him. He is the mouthpiece. Thats it. Anyone in his position would be getting ripped apart no matter what measures he puts in place.

You dont lockdown (which we have no proof is the best method anyway) and you get called a murderer.

You do lockdown and you probably still get called a murderer but on top of that you get told youre punishing the working classes, youre killing small businessed and youre letting the economy tank.

I wouldnt wanna be in his position right now. There is no right answer. There is no clear solution here.

Hes right. People will die and he cant stop it. Just like people in italy are still dying.

Bathroom12345 · 14/03/2020 09:57

Miggins. Good post. Jeepers seems to have tunnel vision on CV and is trying to trash Boris and co. When asked what they would do she (and I do think it is women - goodness knows why) rambles on about doing what other countries do. No detail. Just vague virtue signalling presumably to make themselves feel better about themselves.

Presumably a complete nightmare to be around in real life.

MigginsMrs · 14/03/2020 09:57

Of course it is. But perhaps opening your eyes to life outside this comparatively cushy privileged bubble might help you get a sense of perspective.

EsmeeMerlin · 14/03/2020 10:02

@Babytigerrr which is exactly why people need to stop panicking. There are already people who cannot buy baby formula or nappies. Food banks running short of essential items. Elderly people struggling to get the food they need. Homeless people getting less support because people do not want to go out. That’s before more people panic if we go on lockdown. It’s all very well trying to save everyone from Coronavirus. Fat condolence that will be to the people now slowly starving to death.

JeepersC · 14/03/2020 10:10

EsmeeMerlin 250 people died in Italy yesterday from CV.

LuckyAmy1986 · 14/03/2020 10:45

@jeepersc I thought you wanted us to copy Italy?

MashedPotatoBrainz · 14/03/2020 10:51

The government (and I am no fan usually) are acting on actual, scientific and medical advice.

They're acting on selected scientific and medical advice that suits their political agenda. Scientific and medical advice that is contrary to the scientific and medical advice being given in every other country and contrary to what many scientists and medics in the UK are advising.

kissmewherethesundontshine · 14/03/2020 11:08

What @Whowantstogotothepark said, the Tory voters are starting to realise that not giving a shit about the vulnerable in society and voting for the same has made THEM the vulnerable now...there isn't enough beds for the number of predicted that will need beds, our death toll will be higher than the 3% or whatever the latest figure is I fear Sad

JeepersC · 14/03/2020 11:12

@jeepersc I thought you wanted us to copy Italy?

Did I? Please quote me. Must have forgotten. May be the alzheimers.

thetwinkletoescollective · 14/03/2020 11:19

I think there is a huge difference between many people will die and we are doing what we can in a global effort and many people will die and we will do little and late, if at all.

I reckon it’s a quadruple whammy of cull the old and infirm, free up the inheritance that’s locked up in their houses and control the people with fear and give us all a greater evil to fight against.

This seems like a win win situation unless you actually love the old and infirm in your life.

Boredbumhead · 14/03/2020 11:26

Just reading the guardian. It seems that local and national organisations have been already acting ahead of government advice and cancelling things. It's forcing a government U turn and they are expected to cancel mass gatherings from next week. I have one more week face to face in work, then plan to work remotely and in fact we are being asked to give lectures remotely anyway. I think national and local organisations are acting to show they are more responsive than the government which will embarras the government into action.

Boredbumhead · 14/03/2020 11:46

Also what Boris is doing is out of kilter with WHO policy, which is the delay phase next. Boris seems to be skipping that step. It's very very dodgy.

Sittinonthefloor · 14/03/2020 11:46

Bored - or they’ve played it quite cleverly and ensured that the response to cancelling stuff will be positive as it’ll be seen to have been our choice rather than imposed on us. I’m who knows which it is!!

hiddenmnetter · 14/03/2020 11:47

@jasjas1973 Naturally occuring Herd immunity, means subjecting everyone to the full force of the disease, so killing off those who can't survive and leaving some with long term complications.

No, it doesn't. Herd immunity in that context is what farmers do to cattle and sheep. Herd immunity in the context of humans is about reducing R0 to less than 1. R0 refers to the infection rate of a disease. Coronavirus has an R0 of 2.5- that is, every infected person infects 2.5 others. This results in exponential growth of the disease.

Now, once you've had Corona once (like virtually all viruses) you can't get it again until it mutates. Even then, it is generally gotten more mildly and with less virulence. So once 50% of the population have had Corona virus, now all infected people are only infecting 1.25 people. In order to have a virus cease to spread, you need R0 to be less than 1. 1/2.5=0.4. So once 60% of the population have had Corona virus, R0 is now less than 1.

That is the point at which Corona virus is going to end- every infected and contagious person at that point will infect (on average) less than 1 other person. That is what herd immunity is, in human populations. The point at which the distribution of human antibodies means that a disease no longer grows at an exponential rate (anything with an R0 above 1 is exponential, anything less than 1 is terminal).

This is the huge disadvantage of the lockdown method that China and all the others are applying- while R0 remains above 1, all lockdown does is delay a second pandemic. Ideally you wait until R0 is below or approaching less than 1, then hit lockdown. At that point the 40% of the population who haven't yet been infected have a real chance of avoiding it all together because herd immunity suppresses the distribution of the disease, and by locking down you give a chance to those who have it to recover and stop being contagious.

China has had 80,000 cases, with a population of 1.3 billion. Less than 0.00001% of the population have had Corona virus. Right now R0 in China is approximately 2.4999999999999999. i.e.: the second lockdown ends, epidemic resumes.

If China had caught this out the gate, if they had locked down and banned travel back in November when they first got wind of it, this might have been contained. But they didn't. So now this is what we have to face.

This isn't politics. It's maths. It's brutal, but it's the facts of the matter- because I can guarantee that no matter how total the lockdown, someone who is contagious will come out of the lockdown. If R0 is not below 1, then lockdown has achieved nothing. It is awful, my parents are in their 70s and my mother is an asthmatic. They are self isolating at the moment. Hopefully herd immunity is reached before they get it. If not, then there is a 15% chance they will die. That's awful, but i appreciate their best hope lies in weathering this storm which may mean months of isolation. Hopefully they can do that. I may have to drive 4 hours each way to deliver them groceries, thank goodness for things like facetime so at least we can see and talk to them.

Lockdown in China and other countries has already shrunk global GDP growth to less than 1.5%. which means we are already looking at a financial crisis worse than 2008. If this continues for long enough, we are looking at possibly the worst financial crisis since the Spanish flu or bubonic plague. You want to know what kills more people than coronavirus? Poverty, homelessness and starvation due to massive global economic shock. Crumbling infrastructure in cities that lead to faulty sewerage that results in spikes of typhoid fever (easily spread without sanitation infrastructure and a mortality rate of 20%). That will kill untold numbers, and is far more fucking scary than Corona virus. You better bloody hope the government retains the financial capacity to maintain basic infrastructure.

So no, it's not about money over people. It's about damage control. Don't be so fucking stupid.

hiddenmnetter · 14/03/2020 11:57

Now, once you've had Corona once (like virtually all viruses) you can't get it again until it mutates. Even then, it is generally gotten more mildly and with less virulence. So once 50% of the population have had Corona virus, now all infected people are only infecting 1.25 people. In order to have a virus cease to spread, you need R0 to be less than 1. 1/2.5=0.4. So once 60% of the population have had Corona virus, R0 is now less than 1.

I should add that this is speculation- there is no solid body of evidence about the resulting immunity from COVID-19. It's too new. However, that is the case with coronavirus' generally, and I think it makes an awful lot of sense to presume that one coronavirus is similar to others. Which is why usually you get a cold or flu once as it does the rounds. If you get out twice, chances are you've gotten a different virus.

MigginsMrs · 14/03/2020 12:27

@hiddenmnetter great posts. I’m no science mind but this is what I understand re the China position as well. They’re just risking another peak which will be just as bad as this one.

jasjas1973 · 14/03/2020 12:30

@hiddenmnetter

You stated i was wrong and then wrote a fairly long post on why i was right!
As there is no vaccine, then the only way to get herd immunity (assuming it would work with CV, arguable at best) is to allow CV19 to hit everyone, the fit and strong will survive and everyone else will die or have a very horrible long lasting illness... no country has the means to treat even a tiny % of its vulnerable.
We also don't know what level of infection we would need to get, 50% or 95% as with Measles.

The UK is going very much against world scientific opinion, so what you and others seem to be saying is: UK right, RoW wrong.

hiddenmnetter · 14/03/2020 12:39

I'm not saying you're right- I'm saying the idea is to NOT hit everyone, but to ideally aim for a lockdown at around 60% infection

hiddenmnetter · 14/03/2020 12:49

And sorry I thought it was understood that as far as possible the vulnerable self isolate so that it is largely the strong and healthy that get this, so that hers immunity is achieved with the minimum number of deaths. Further it is achieved with the minimum economic pain because that will end up killing more

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