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Worried about coronavirus thread 25

999 replies

ofwarren · 13/03/2020 10:59

Here's the new thread
I'll get Mumsnet to add the links later as I'm busy.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
thetwinkletoescollective · 14/03/2020 10:15

@RedToothBrush really interesting post about the two camps. Thank you

ajandjjmum · 14/03/2020 10:15

I do wonder if the Govt. are allowing/expecting people to make their own sensible decisions, without them having to impose them.

For one, I am 60 and on BP meds., and have decided to stay at home unless for anything critical. DD has bought tickets for the two of us to go to Mamma Mia at the O2 next Sunday, but I really can't see that it would be sensible for us to go. I feel bad as it's a lot of money for her to lose, but I know that her stance is 'health is more important'.

DH is 62 but fit and healthy - he's going to do the food runs, and is still at work. He's at Euston today, and says it's dead.

waspfig · 14/03/2020 10:16

Don't know if this has been posted yet, just catching up.

Spain cancels all holidays to Spain and Balearic and Canary Islands with immediate effect.

Planes turning around mid air and coming back to UK

www.google.com/amp/s/www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/jet2-flights-spain-turned-round-17924343.amp

Worried about coronavirus thread 25
ajandjjmum · 14/03/2020 10:17

Should say I do feel a bit pathetic about this. I've always been strong and healthy - the one who organises and gets things done. I'm finding this really scary. Something I never thought I'd say, I glad my DP are not here and having to go through this.

waspfig · 14/03/2020 10:17

Sorry, Jet2 cancels holidays to...

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2020 10:21

Beth Rigby @bethrigby
This is also a very good thread from Professor at Liverpool Uni explaining govt strategy (in contrast to other countries deploying more draconian measures) and the possible benefits & risks. #coronavirus

Professor Ian Donald @iandonald_psych
1. The govt strategy on #Coronavirus is more refined than those used in other countries and potentially very effective. But it is also riskier and based on a number of assumptions. They need to be correct, and the measures they introduce need to work when they are supposed to.

2. This all assumes I'm correct in what I think the govt are doing and why. I could be wrong - and wouldn't be surprised. But it looks to me like. . .

3. A UK starting assumption is that a high number of the population will inevitably get infected whatever is done – up to 80%. As you can’t stop it, so it is best to manage it.

There are limited health resources so the aim is to manage the flow of the seriously ill to these.

4. The Italian model the aims to stop infection. The UKs wants infection BUT of particular categories of people. The aim of the UK is to have as many lower risk people infected as possible. Immune people cannot infect others; the more there are the lower the risk of infection

5. That's herd immunity.
Based on this idea, at the moment the govt wants people to get infected, up until hospitals begin to reach capacity. At that they want to reduce, but not stop infection rate. Ideally they balance it so the numbers entering hospital = the number leaving.

6. That balance is the big risk.

All the time people are being treated, other mildly ill people are recovering and the population grows a higher percent of immune people who can’t infect. They can also return to work and keep things going normally - and go to the pubs.

7.The risk is being able to accurately manage infection flow relative to health case resources. Data on infection rates needs to be accurate, the measures they introduce need to work and at the time they want them to and to the degree they want, or the system is overwhelmed.

8. Schools: Kids generally won’t get very ill, so the govt can use them as a tool to infect others when you want to increase infection. When you need to slow infection, that tap can be turned off – at that point they close the schools. Politically risky for them to say this.

9. The same for large scale events - stop them when you want to slow infection rates; turn another tap off. This means schools etc are closed for a shorter period and disruption generally is therefore for a shorter period, AND with a growing immune population. This is sustainable

10. After a while most of the population is immune, the seriously ill have all received treatment and the country is resistant. The more vulnerable are then less at risk. This is the end state the govt is aiming for and could achieve.

11. BUT a key issue during this process is protection of those for whom the virus is fatal. It's not clear the full measures there are to protect those people. It assumes they can measure infection, that their behavioural expectations are met - people do what they think they will

12. The Italian (and others) strategy is to stop as much infection as possible - or all infection. This is appealing, but then what? The restrictions are not sustainable for months. So the will need to be relaxed. But that will lead to reemergence of infections.

13. Then rates will then start to climb again. So they will have to reintroduce the restrictions each time infection rates rise. That is not a sustainable model and takes much longer to achieve the goal of a largely immune population with low risk of infection of the vulnerable

14. As the government tries to achieve equilibrium between hospitalisations and infections, more interventions will appear. It's perhaps why there are at the moment few public information films on staying at home. They are treading a tight path, but possibly a sensible one.

15. This is probably the best strategy, but they should explain it more clearly. It relies on a lot of assumptions, so it would be good to know what they are - especially behavioural. Most encouraging, it's way too clever for #BorisJohnson to have had any role in developing.

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2020 10:23

Beth Rigby @bethrigby
Interesting on China testing/treatment. Medic source to me: ‘GP practices need to become cold hubs for biz as usual. Hot hubs need to be set up to triage respiratory patients. Primary care NOT protected at present. Docs/staff at risk daily & threatens primary care imploding’

Horehound · 14/03/2020 10:26

@RedToothBrush 2 camps...not shit. We can see that in this thread Hmm
The more tricky group to manage are actually the ones who trust Johnson because they are more resistant to change. If Johnson loses their trust that could be a problem further down the line

Well, I don't agree. I trust them at the moment. If they change their stance I will trust the decision they are making us for the better. 🤷

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2020 10:26

What will be interesting in terms of pro government supporters is how trust in Johnson holds when there starts to be a ramming up of the number of deaths.

You have to assume that there is an optimum number of deaths where there are enough but not too many for tight controls to be locked in. Remembering there is a lag period for the number of deaths.

Brig93 · 14/03/2020 10:27

Guys i have a problem, i have two small children.
Both of them have the same formula milk sma comfort. Yesterday at the shop, I wasn’t allowed to buy more than 3 cans. It last only 2-3 days.
Its hard for me to go anywhere anyway with so small children. Do you think online i can buy some more? I cannot afford to pay 5 pounds for the bus, every 2 days to go to the shop to buy the milk for them. They simply didn’t get it that those 3 cans are nothing. We use like 10-12 minimum for month. Anyone did online shopping and had restrictions over the amount of product you can buy? Thank you

MarshaBradyo · 14/03/2020 10:27

I actually have switched to thinking they are on to something and am still complying

bemoreeverything · 14/03/2020 10:27

The first case of a newborn has just hit the news. Apparently the baby was tested straight after birth and it's come back positive

Piggywaspushed · 14/03/2020 10:27

so the govt can use them as a tool to infect others when you want to increase infection.

ie teachers and other school workers as well as each other. Whoever said cannon fodder upthread had it right.

Michelleoftheresistance · 14/03/2020 10:28

Most encouraging, it's way too clever for #BorisJohnson to have had any role in developing.

Yeah... I keep thinking about my experience of B.J.

It kind of goes (as I remember the Brexit referendum):

Boris has brilliant idea about wonderful way forward, not very compatible with anyone else's view of things but he's sure they're all being negative and silly.

Boris sells this idea vigorously, including on sides of buses, with a very relaxed attitude towards actual truth.

General public believe Boris and do what Boris says.

Things then go suddenly and hard in a direction that Boris never saw coming.

Boris vanishes during the night like snow off a hot brick, and plays no further part in the proceedings, with no effort at all to help sort out the bloody gigantic mess he has made. General public left paddleless up creek.

I see his brilliant idea this time. I see the salesmanning. I'll wait for the buses. I'm listening to the WHO and thinking.... they don't agree with one word of this. And they don't have a long history of being a charming wide boy. (Putting it politely.)

Purplewhitelie · 14/03/2020 10:28

Ive been shut down on it though!

Angryrant55 · 14/03/2020 10:30

Going by how social media anger is growing the far right will benefit a lot.

SemiSkimmedMilk · 14/03/2020 10:32

@Greenbutterlfy566

Some sources say 2-14 days but there maybe some infected people who remain symptomless.

GPwife2411 · 14/03/2020 10:33

The system is already creaking in GP - where doctors are already getting infected amid no adequate PPE - and efforts to triage. 111 still overwhelmed - DH is spending all day working with them to telephone triage patients - and ICUs are presently full. Home visiting respiratory care teams are not yet formed and there is a distinct lack of volunteers.

Angryrant55 · 14/03/2020 10:33

Well Southern Italy has always been looked down on by the north.

boatyardblues · 14/03/2020 10:33

Brig93 - Do your kids actually need to be on formula? If I recall (my kids are in high school), you can switch to cows milk after 12 months and you could give vitamin supplements to provide the other benefits that enriched formula provides. If you have a baby

SansaSnark · 14/03/2020 10:34

@Michelleoftheresistance I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

Angryrant55 · 14/03/2020 10:34

Alex Wickham
@alexwickham
·
7m
Supermarkets absolutely key to UK response

— Ministers considering suspending competition law and waiving carrier bag charges
— and even use army to deliver food to shops
— sixth formers, students & other volunteers enlisted for national campaign to help

Angryrant55 · 14/03/2020 10:35

Sebastian Payne
@SebastianEPayne
NEW: Dominic Cummings‘ favoured political tool of focus groups is behind the government’s straightforward messaging on coronavirus:

2016: Take back control
2019: Get Brexit done
2020: Wash your hands
2020: Stay at home

Angryrant55 · 14/03/2020 10:35

Sebastian Payne
@SebastianEPayne
·
47m
Replying to
@SebastianEPayne
One government insider on where the coronavirus slogans came from:

“‘Wash your hands’ might have seemed a bit trivial at the start. But when you’re talking to people in focus groups, they want to know what they can do to make a difference.”

Angryrant55 · 14/03/2020 10:35

Sebastian Payne
@SebastianEPayne
·
46m
The Johnson government had spoken of ‘self-isolation’ for those with coronavirus symptoms. But focus groups suggested the slogan was problematic.

“Talk of self-isolate scared people, they didn’t understand what it meant so we dropped it.”