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Worried about coronavirus thread 25

999 replies

ofwarren · 13/03/2020 10:59

Here's the new thread
I'll get Mumsnet to add the links later as I'm busy.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
BookMeOnTheSudExpress · 14/03/2020 08:02

Fingon- it's funny isn't it?
I've had;
"I don't know how to save a document"
"Can I send you a photo of the homework on WA"
"I can't upload anything onto Drive because we don't have a subscription"
Etc etc.

We are further down the line than you, but it's been quite illuminating. Smile

What's good in all of this though is the kids appreciate the normality.

Cheeseismylife · 14/03/2020 08:03

I suspect it might be quite different here. Many kids will do sweet FA I reckon because they know there are unlikely to be any consequences.

Cheeseismylife · 14/03/2020 08:04

I also suspect that at least 50% will claim their Internet broke for the entire lockdown...

MetalDog · 14/03/2020 08:06

@stoptherideiwanttogetoff

they are not testing because the reported cases would be triple if not more..

Or because they still don’t have enough tests to test for more or (even more concerning) so they can prop up their 1% death rate theory by saying well our models show far more people had mild cases so although X many people have died it’s only a tiny proportion of the total that have had it (but with no hard evidence due to a lack of tests).

As for Wales saying up to 20,000 may die - China’s approach ensured no more than 3000 died and they still calculated the death rate as being 5.7% in Wuhan where the vast majority of deaths occurred.

What possible motivation is their for China to exaggerate the death rate? Far more motivation for our own government to minimise it - in my opinion.

jmcg2015 · 14/03/2020 08:09

@Exochord what it means is that people can't buy the things they need because there is not enough for everyone to do what you are doing. Thats the bottom line. It's not a case of whoever gets their first can get what they like and sod everyone else. It sickens me that this is how you think, honestly it's despicable, it's really sad you are trying to defend yourself. Please don't reply, I've got absolutely no interest in engaging with you any more, you make me sad for humanity

Random18 · 14/03/2020 08:09

My internet would probably cope because I wfh and upgraded.

But no way would my previous broadband manage me working 9_ 5 and kids online doing school work.

StrawberryJam200 · 14/03/2020 08:10

I was just wondering whether internet providers, BT Openreach, PCWorld, mobile retailers etc could be classed as essential services - when I heard about Apple stores temporarily closing. They are kind of essential to our lives. Social media (for all its many ills), wfh and schooling from home are going to be a Godsend in the coming days and weeks.

BookMeOnTheSudExpress · 14/03/2020 08:14

Oh yes, the internet is another one. The kids are all suddenly on dial up.

mrshoho · 14/03/2020 08:19

morning all. Just had Dr Margaret Harris from WHO interviewed on LBC radio. Did anyone else hear? She is more or less saying that the approach we are taking of not testing those isolating at home is terrible and a dangerous experimental approach.

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2020 08:19

Matt Chorley @mattchorley
NEW: YouGov poll published by @thetimes reveals sharp jump in % who are "scared" about getting coronavirus, up from 24% two weeks ago to 38% in poll carried out since just before PM's press conference yesterday
More here t.co/GF2MDBj0L3

[rtb: since the press conference the consensus I've seen is the mood has changed further and people are even more scared]

New @YouGov poll also shows how much we are changing behaviour. With handwashing doubling (though still only to 61%) and more avoiding touching things in public, crowds, and tourists

55% back the government approach BUT it is getting more partisan:
Backing among Tories and Leavers is up, but down among Labour voters and Remainers
The culture war is still with us, apparently

James Morris @jamesdmorris
This is bad news. We don’t want behaviour change to be governed by political identity. The strategy decisions contain value judgments not just descriptive science, but we have to take partisanship out as much as possible

I think this is a really important thread and the politics about it are worth discussing - from a scientific point of view.

Firstly in any crisis of this scale having public trust is very important. It affects behaviour.

The government is heavily leaning and relying on behavioural science as part of its strategy. So trust as part of that is relevant.

We've already established that fear is an important part of behavial science and getting people to do things.

Why is the culture war relevant to covid-19?

We have two broad camps which have completely different outlooks on life. Most people are generally either in one camp or the other to a greater or lesser extent. For our national response to covid-19 to be successful Johnson needs to manage both camps and get both camps doing the right thing.

I'm going to term this as the 'Pro-government' camp and the 'government sceptic camp' rather than use other labels because I think it's better to do that rather than be more partisan at this stage.

In terms of behavial science, you would expect each group to behave in different ways.

The pro-government group think the government is doing the right thing and will largely follow what messages are put out because they have have levels of trust. They will do what they are told when they are told and think the government is doing the right things at the right time and there is no need to go beyond that. They are essentially state led who will take the least action until instructed not to.

Then you have the government sceptics. This group doesn't trust the government. They are more fearful as a result. They think the government should do more and are frustrated they aren't. Many will be trying to go beyond the current government recommendations where they can and will be acting independently to take action to limit social interaction without government prompting.

Now as much as I'm not a fan of Johnson, he has a good grasp of behavial science perhaps more than other politicians have. Both in the UK and abroad. Elections are all about political communication and behavioral science. And whether I like it or not, he has been more successful at it then others. I don't have to like him to know this. The failure of government sceptic leaders in the last few years is an inability to understand what motives people who arent like them and have been left completely baffled with behaviour and ideas that don't find their world view. Johnson to a certain extent understand both camps better even if its for his own personal advantage.

The pro government camp Trust Johnson but aren't really big on the whole apocalypse thing. They won't change behaviour unless they think it necessary and important. They are resistant to change. They have to be brought along slowly otherwise they will just throw up hands and refuse to comply or even be deliberately obstructive. Trust in Johnson is a massive deal here.

The flip of that is that the government sceptics more driven by fear and acting independently are initially doing more to stop the spread because they are proactive. The more fear and lack of trust, the more strongly they react. This is in terms of protesting online and actually changing behaviour. They are people who are happy and more open to change. Lack of trust in Johnson actually works in a productive manner on this subject though! It causes people to act in a more proactive manner where they can out of this idea of the need to self preserve.

I think my point here is that both camps are important because you can't get away from the reality of the range in people being hostile to change through to those who embrace change. This is part of basic management principles on introducing change. You have to bring along the resistors as much as encourage the enthusiatic supporters of change.

In reality what this means is if you are a government sceptic who doesn't trust Johnson that's fine. You are being managed by fear anyway. The more tricky group to manage are actually the ones who trust Johnson because they are more resistant to change. If Johnson loses their trust that could be a problem further down the line. Johnson really can only ramp things up at a certain pace to keep the change resistors on board.

As a footnote to this, it's worth noting that in Hong Kong self regulated behaviour which has largely been put down to fear of a repeat of SARS has been thought to be a factor which has massively reduced infection rates there. They had already been trained in changing behaviour so didn't need to be managed in the same way.

In the UK the example of Hong Kong and the important of self regulated behaviour not needing to be enforced by authority primarily, could mean that in theory your political views could make a difference because they are affecting the way you behave.

Anxiety (or hysteria as it has been characterised by some) is an raw instinct based on survival. Fear as a driver is important.

Final footnote on this. The culture war is even more pronounced and more important to the US. Even more so because they have an upcoming election. Partisanship is normally much higher in the US and Trump is the king of partisanship. But up till about two days ago he wasn't remotely looking at behavioral science nor considering electoral impact. There is a big difference between how things are playing out in the US and here. Trumps 'insane' tweets about praying aren't crazy though. The penny has just dropped over there that actually Covid-19 is a problem for Trump. He has to lead the Christian right groups and appeal to things they understand to get the trust thing going so he can bring them along. Healthcare will be the defining thing of the US election and Trump has been caught off guard with it. He isnt leading the narrative. Trump talking about God, therefore isn't as nuts as its sounds. It represents the fact he's starting to try and manage one of his tribes that support him (the other tribes are the nationalists and the ultra neoliberalism business elite with a certain amount of overlap between the 3 tribes).

Anyone who think politics isn't important with reference to covid-19 doesn't understand how management of the disease is all about political communication.

Does this explain the difference between the WHO approach and the UK government approach. Quite probably. Is it a better approach which will be more successful in the long run? That's a different question. The issue is time or rather a lack of it. The behavioral science approach needs time to implement successfully. Whether we have the time to do that before so many people are infected that the health service becomes overwhelmed is another matter. It's questionable tbh. Whilst I am very cynical of this government and its alarming level of support for eugenics as a legitimate social engineering tool, I also know they are shit hot on understanding how to motivate people to behave in certain ways.

I hope that this might explain a little of the friction of disagreements along the lines of politics or the idea of 'hysteria'.

Anyway that was long and probably boring, but I do think it's important.

Worried about coronavirus thread 25
Worried about coronavirus thread 25
Worried about coronavirus thread 25
ofwarren · 14/03/2020 08:21

EU calls for health checks at borders as Covid-19 outbreak spreads
t.co/VeihwiJLOl
ITV

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FingonTheValiant · 14/03/2020 08:21

Book yep, it did make me laugh. I pointed out that when I’d given them the code for one website they’d all complained that I would let them get their phones out to try it immediately, so they can clearly access it.

Not that they realise it yet, but I think it will really do them good to be able to stay in contact with teachers and each other via school work. To see that the world isn’t coming to an end and we’re going on as normal. Some of them are quite panicky already. And with no sports, music, drama and potentially later no restaurants etc, the lack of contact could really affect teenagers.

Cheese I lightheartedly threatened all kinds of dire (and ludicrous) future punishments (e.g. having to sing their lessons for the whole of May, homework due the day before it was set resulting in detention, exams only marked if done whilst juggling), it lightened the mood, but weirdly they understood that whilst there’ll technically be no consequences, we’re not going to be impressed. Also we won’t go back over the work, so if they missed it that’s on them. And we’ll be monitoring and the heads will phone parents if there’s an issue.

SistemaAddict · 14/03/2020 08:22

Morning all. I need to catch up but have just read on another thread that self isolation is a privilege because in the real world people just need to crack on Confused
I'm finding it upsetting to read of people who are living day to day with food shopping or can't afford to buy some extra items.

ofwarren · 14/03/2020 08:24

International visitors to New Zealand must self-isolate for 14 days upon arrival to help slow the spread of the new #coronavirus, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said Saturday t.co/XjERGzjQUK
AFP

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ofwarren · 14/03/2020 08:26

Mainland China reports 11 new coronavirus infections; new Hubei cases continue to drop t.co/9r04719390 t.co/YFta57N5AN
Reuters

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Notonthestairs · 14/03/2020 08:32

Very interesting post RedToothBrush. I think I am a compliant sceptic - but for how long I don't know.

boatyardblues · 14/03/2020 08:32

International visitors to New Zealand must self-isolate for 14 days upon arrival to help slow the spread of the new #coronavirus

That’s quite an effective way of discouraging tourists. Who wants to spend their two week holiday of a lifetime confined to an airport hotel room?

Ijustneed · 14/03/2020 08:33

Just heard from family in Berlin, one of the unis has closed completely until July.

MarshaBradyo · 14/03/2020 08:33

I think the govt knows behaviour better than other countries too atm.

Well except the ones who did exceedingly well after they had SARS threat.

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2020 08:33

I'm finding it upsetting to read of people who are living day to day with food shopping or can't afford to buy some extra items.

Last week at the peak of bog roll shortage I was in a rough/poor part of Manchester in as I was getting something else and decided to pop into another couple of shops to get other stuff we needed whilst we were there.

No shortages there. Plenty of stock everywhere.

I have noticed that shortages have tended to be more pronounced in certain, more affluent areas, connected with areas with certain political views and levels of engagement and in certain shops (which tend to be frequented by slightly different demographics of people).

People are behaving differently based on these factors: the ability to change, the willingness to change and the awareness of the need to change.

ofwarren · 14/03/2020 08:38

Coronavirus was able to bypass quarantine lockdown in Wuhan after mutating into second strain, say scientists in China t.co/lMinoX6GA5
Daily mail

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ofwarren · 14/03/2020 08:40

‘Everybody in Britain is pretending there is only one scientific opinion. Other countries are trying to suppress it. Britain is following a theory of herd immunity. That is a v v big choice. It is not a scientific choice. It’s a political choice’
t.co/VklLRbXTP5
Rory stewart on CNN

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BookMeOnTheSudExpress · 14/03/2020 08:43

More trains allowed to leave Milan for the south last night.
So much for national solidarity.

ofwarren · 14/03/2020 08:45

Apple closes all stores outside Greater China amid #coronavirus outbreak
t.co/0Wtwn68bhL
ITV

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ofwarren · 14/03/2020 08:46

At least 100 care homes ban visitors from seeing their relatives amid accusations that 'tin-pot dictators' are putting residents' health at risk t.co/tr7uU5LIXE
Daily mail

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