Childminder intending to still charge in case of setting closure

[TooGood2BeTrue]

Our childminder has told us that in case her settings will have to be closed because of the virus she will continue to charge parents. Just wondering if this is legal? We only use her for a few hours each week, and it wouldn't break the bank, but I'm a bit annoyed by this TBH. I read that customers who bought tickets for cancelled events are entitled to refunds; is this really so different?

My son wouldn;t - he lopves music theory. Dh doesn;t teach theory though. He specialises in working with professionals and college students. or those suffering vocal problems/damage sometimes in conjunction with an SLT.

OP, I'm self employed, and could just about get my work done with our toddler at home. The industry I work in shouldn't be too badly affected, and I don't mind continuing to pay the nursery in the event of a shutdown, since it's more important that we have a nursery still trading when this is over.

However, I completely recognise that a lot of self employed people will lose their income source too, in which case they simply won't be able to pay. I think the government need to put measures in place to support childminders and nurseries as well as self employed people who are going to suffer.

I think it’s rather convenient that a CM who is self employed can just say they still expect full pay even though they can’t work.

Almost every other SE person won’t get paid because they won’t be able to deliver the service they are paid for.

Yes it’s shit but it’s also unfair to just presume parents can continue to find a place whilst they themselves won’t be able to work and may also not be paid.

My CM had a F2F conversation with me about it, acknowledging that it’s a really tough situation. I can afford to keep paying so have offered to do so. Some parents are going to pay half.

Although if you're just arguing over the "principle of the thing", I'm not sure I have a massive amount of sympathy.

Generally you pay to keep your place.

I feel very sorry for childcare workers in this position. I used to work in childcare and I know that a lot of parents agree that we do a hard job and deserve decent pay but at the same time seem to begrudge every penny.

If you can afford it and dont want to lose your place, I would pay it.

Snotalot Actually I think people are considering the OP’s specific case - where she has said that she could afford to cover it though it would be annoying - as well as the more general situation including those cases where people can’t afford the outgoings with nothing incoming

I very much doubt there is anything in your contract that covers the current situation. Most people are in brand new territory here and have not written policies about pandemics. Had you ever thought of it before now?

Most childcare settings have insurance against having to close due to a notifiable illness. However, the insurance small print then lists those notifiable illnesses. Obviously Corona virus isn't on that list. It didn't exist a few months ago. The insurance companies have clearly stated they are not going to pay out.

If you want continued childcare in the future and you are getting paid then you should pay your childminder. If you don't pay then I doubt your child's place will remain open. You may also struggle to find a new provider willing to help you going forward.

As a childminder, assuming my business stays financially operational after this crisis, I would definitely think twice about offering a place to a family who had chosen not to support their childminder through this situation. You may find available places going to others.

It is really quite possible there will be a shortage of childcare places in the future. Many nurseries are already closing due to funding shortfalls even before the economic impact of Corona virus hits. People don't really realise how serious it is and probably won't until they find themselves unable to work because they no longer can find childcare.

Pebbles Thank you. I had thought of Skype but needed the benefit of being able to look at at screen at the same time.

Will look into Zoom. Being out of the 'normal' workforce for so long, I'm generally unaware as to which are the best platforms.

I can see two sides to this, and it's a very tricky situation to be in.

Assuming there is no change in income to myself or DP, and that I am not having to pay someone else (I.e. we can solve the childcare issue between friends and family) I think we would continue to pay our CM. I respect my CM and would not want her to be financially struggling due to a situation entirely out of her control. And I definitely don't want her to close long term due to financial hardship following coronavirus.

Well apparently self employed people self isolating will now be able to claim sick pay via Universal credit.

From a legal perspective, if you can't provide the service, you can't charge for it. It's very simple.

However, obviously she is going to try her luck because she needs to pay the mortgage. I assume she doesn't have insurance (and I suppose this isn't covered).

Maybe you could compromise on a retainer or something so that you keep the place for when she reopens.

Whether it’s legally enforceable depends on what your contract says

Not if the term is unfair. Unfair terms in consumer contracts cannot be enforced and it would be an unfair term to expect consumers to pay for a service they are not receiving.

Force majeure does cover this situation, but it is not so that the CM can continue to charge, it's so the parent can't sue for the loss of the service, eg the need to pay for emergency childcare.

(Charging for holidays and short term sick leave is probably ok, but this could be quite a long lay-off and more than a couple of weeks isn't going to be reasonable).

Back in the day my CM used to charge for bank holidays but only if she was going to work the rest of the week but didn't charge for her own holidays, she took about 3 weeks a year. I don't remember her ever being ill, but she wouldn't have charged for her own sickness.

Will it all be in the contract as many posters say?

I wouldn't bet on it.

Would I get paid ( I'm SE ) if I didn't work.

No chance.

@cologne4711 Thanks; this is very useful information and the sort of detail I was looking for.

“Will it all be in the contract as many posters say?”

No one here knows - that’s why the OP has been advised to seek advice from a qualified lawyer about her contract if a legal opinion is what she is after

it's the principle that counts in my opinion.
This almost always means "I know I'm being a twat, but I just don't want to" in my experience. I'm not saying that you are wrong to not want to pay, but please don't dress it up as some sort of moral crusade.
Would your CM be likely to agree to a reduced rate for any period of closure? Presumably her costs will be slightly lower due to not having to provide snacks and drinks or activities. Worth asking, anyway.

As a childminder, assuming my business stays financially operational after this crisis, I would definitely think twice about offering a place to a family who had chosen not to support their childminder through this situation

"chosen" or "can't afford to subsidise someone else's mortgage"

Why should someone pay £100s a month for a service they are not receiving? I know the rail companies expect you to, but outside that narrow world of entitlement, you pay for a service if it is provided.

@IvinghoeBeacon of course.

just throwing my hat in with all the other speculators

I would definitely think twice about offering a place to a family who had chosen not to support their childminder through this situation

My priority would be keeping a roof over my own children's heads and feeding them.

@cologne4711 - I'd be very understanding if parents genuinely couldn't keep paying, but if I knew/felt that a parent could pay something and didn't on principle or because they didn't feel legally obliged, I'd consider it a breakdown in our relationship.

That's why the OP needs to consider both whether she can afford to pay, and whether she wants to keep the place (and if alternative childcare will be available!).

Nurseries are already often financially precarious, so a long shut down could see some going under - any providers that do stay open will be in demand.

It depends on the contract you have signed...

“because their insurers have told them they won't cover closure for coronavirus so parents will have to keep paying as usual even if they close.”

The point is the parents aren’t legally obligated to pay the nursery because their insurance policy said “no” unless it states that very “act of god” type of scenario in the contract you’ve signed. That is completely different to a self employed childminder with no monthly rent or numerous staff to pay.

This almost always means "I know I'm being a twat, but I just don't want to" in my experience.

In mine, it usually means I'm prepared to spend five grand in legal fees arguing over a fiver. Principles tend to be very expensive, but each to their own.

I think they should not be charging if they decide to close themselves or have to close due to their own sickness. If parents decide to withdraw their children then they should continue to pay. This is just what normally happens surely. This virus doesn't really change anything that I can see. It's not the childminder's fault if parents are off work.

The way I look at it, I wouldn't want my nursery telling me to bring him in if there was a chance he could be exposed, all because they were too afraid to be honest because if they were, their business would fold.

That's why I think the government needs to step in. It would be a massive problem all over the country - I'd be surprised if they didn't recognise that.