Is the green party starting to regret it's association with Islamists?

[mids2019]

The green party, ostensibly about climate protection and general progressive values seems to have gotten into bed with Islamist sympathisers and the amount of anti semitism and basic hatred of their own country is now obvious.

The green party now at least locally are known as a party that has sympathies towards all manner of Islamist causes including Hamas's objective to wipe Israel of the face of the Earth.

Wouldn't be surprised if they produce a motion declaring climate change a Jewish conspiracy........

All you're giving me is soundbites trying to somehow claim that the persecution the Jews faced in Europe was the same everywhere. I explained in a previous post that religious bias exists everywhere to some degree and has done since those religions were first created. Every time I give you an example, you dismiss it as an outlier without backing up your argument with any factual examples. You keep referring to a completely different situation which is literally like comparing apples to oranges. Egyptian Jews were Egyptian as were Egyptian Christians and Egyptian Muslims. If you think Avi Shlaims book is too specific to a single person, try this one. It is also good and is 28 personal accounts. 'THE LOST WORLD OF THE EGYPTIAN JEWS: First-person Accounts from Egypt's Jewish Community In the Twentieth Century' by Liliane Dammond. If 28 accounts are still too specific then I can't help you as I have not read any book that interviews every single Arab Jew.

You keep banging on about this as if it has some relevance but okay, Azerbaijan.

Yes, I agree. There's been way too much bitterness building up for Jews to be able to live safely in a Muslim majority state in the Middle East. You only have to look at the numbers of Christians fleeing Muslim countries in that region and that's without all the animosity that's built up over the last 80 years.

You are focusing on individuals so I gave you parallel examples. I am discussing ‘peoples’ on a population level. You then give me more example of individuals and seem unable to grasp the concept that individuals might have different opinions even if it is 28 of them.

On a population level Jews were treated as second class citizens, I gave a specific example the Jizya. Other posters have pointed out in Western Europe many Jews appeared fully integrated in terms of jobs, politics, the law etc. This did not happen in the ME or Eastern Europe.

Once again, on a population level the Jewish and Christian peoples of the Middle East were treated as second class citizens one of the reasons behind the creation of Israel. That some Jewish people liked living in these countries is irrelevant on a population level. If is slightly desperate that you can not accept this point and this makes me think there are deeper levels of prejudice at play.

I don’t want to be pedantic but - not soundbites.

Azerbaijan is a very interesting case and it is correct that it is a very tolerant society, that’s a good point. It is widely criticised in the Arab world for being intolerant of Islam.

I suppose the question for Israel due to its location are there any tolerant countries in the Middle East. Jordan and Lebanon were historically more mixed and tolerant but that wouldn’t be true today.

@Squeezingwildoranges - see what I did there? You made a good point so I accepted it and moved the discussion along. If I had denied it was true and tried to fight it when you were obviously correct - on this one point - it would have weakened other arguments. No one is always right and arguing from that view point is dangerous to yourself and others.

I'd like to hear about where the Jews in Israel are supposed to go when Palestine is "free from the river to the sea?" Will Israeli refugees be "welcome" here or does that apply to everyone except Jews?

Jizya was a tax on all non-Muslims, not just Jews and it was abolished in the mid 19th Century. The founding political ideology of the State of Israel was conceived and developed as a European project, designed by Ashkenazi Jews in response to European antisemitism. Even to this day, Israel has never had a prime minister who was not Ashkenazi despite them only making up 45% of the population at most.

"Jews appeared fully integrated in terms of jobs, politics, the law etc. This did not happen in the ME or Eastern Europe."

Every single example I gave you was an example of fully integrated Jews. When thousands of Iraqi Jews agreed to give up their Iraqi nationality to go to Israel because of the growing civil persecution in the 50's, they were promised their property in Iraq would be preserved. Nuri Al Said, the then Prime Minister, realised that if the Jews took their immense wealth with them, it would bankrupt the country. That was when he reneged on the arrangement and seized all property and assets of Jews who had registered to leave. Does that sound like they were second class citizens not allowed to own property? I've given you enough information and facts. If you want to continue this conversation, I think you should do the same other than just give me your opinion.

Why do they have to go anywhere?

I think if you were to try to convince Jews that they would be safe in a Palestinian majority state, you would have a real struggle on your hands. There's no way they would feel safe after generations of hatred culminating in the pogrom of Oct 7th leading to 1,200 dead, hundreds kidnapped etc.

This is the reality for Jews in that region today. The fact that other countries aren't so bad or that it wasn't so bad in the past isn't what modern day Israelis are dealing with.

Does October 7th mean anything to you?

Well of course it’s relevant to the discussion about whether Jews would be safe in a Palestinian majority state.

Can you think of any reason why some Palestinians might attack Israelis when they get the opportunity? Do you think Nat Turner had a reason to go on his murderous rampage?

Absolutely. A horrendous terrorist attack but to quote António Guterres, it did not happen in a vacuum. You really think continuing the oppression; actually as we can see in Gaza and the West Bank, escalating the oppression; is going to make Israel safer.

I can think of lots of reasons why some Palestinians might attack Israelis when they get the opportunity. That's kind of the point. After everything that's happened, and yes much of the fault lies with Israel, there's no way on God's green earth that these two peoples are going to live together peaceably.

Azerbaijan is unusual in being a Muslim majority country that is secular and hence more tolerant. It isn’t strictly in the Middle East.

You seemed to struggle to come up with just one example and the country you came up with is not comparable to the area we are talking about. I think it’s very obvious that Jewish people would not be safe sharing a country with Palestinians and most Palestinians wouldn’t want to share a country with Jews either.

Any other examples beyond this one exception to the rule?

Why? Azerbaijanians are not Palestinians. Are you simply lumping all Muslims as the same. The point is totally irrelevant unless it is to back up a skewed xenophobic trope. I'm pissed off with myself for actually answering a whataboutism.

I think a lot of Israelis see it as a choice between being unpopular or being wiped out. Given the history, it makes sense, seen from that point of view.

Why not. As I mentioned earlier, Nat Turner murdered many slave owners and their families. The Black Panthers committed loads of terrorist acts. Following the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., a massive wave of riots swept across the US. This rioting and violent backlash subsided when federal legislative changes took effect and the legal framework of Jim Crow was dismantled. Remove the need to be violent and the violence will subside. Of course there will still be extremists on both sides but that is the price of years of oppression and can be eventually dealt with.

Once again, you are making wild assumptions trying to guess what other people would want if presented with a choice based on your opinion. There is but as I stated, it is an irrelevant and racist point. I'm not entertaining whataboutisms.

You're talking as if it is a binary choice of one or the other. I hate to tell you but they are not mutually exclusive. Both can be simultaneous possibilities.

You’re proposing that Jewish people would be safe in the one state solution you favour but are getting irritated when asked to provide evidence that there are no issues with Jewish people being welcomed in Muslim majority countries.

Let me ask you a question. Would you rather visit Dubai or Kabul. Both are in Muslim countries so surely they must be the same.

What point are you actually trying to make? You’re in favour of a one-state solution, aren’t you? Yet when people ask you how that would work out for Jews, given how they are treated and have been treated historically in Muslim-majority countries, you deflect.

You claim it’s irrelevant whether Jews are actually treated as equals in any Muslim countries today, or that it’s racist to lump all Muslim countries together because of their religion, or that October 7th didn’t happen in a vacuum.

None of what you’re saying actually supports the idea that a one-state solution can work safely for everyone involved, especially not the Jews.

What does that have to do with the safety of Jewish people under a one-state solution?
Neither Dubai nor Kabul has a large, integrated Jewish population living with equal democratic rights.
You are still avoiding the question.

What does the relationship between Israelis and Palestinians have to do with any other country regardless of their religion. The whole premise of this question is basically racist. Essentially it says that all Muslims are the same. Are all Christians the same? Are all Buddhists the same? Are all Jews the same? It is not just an irrelevant question, it is actually offensive. It is like saying Chinese and Japanese people are the same because of the shape of their eyes. I don't know how else I can say this. There is no correlation between how Palestinians would treat Jews or how Azerbaijanians or Indonesians would treat Jews.