Is the green party starting to regret it's association with Islamists?

[mids2019]

The green party, ostensibly about climate protection and general progressive values seems to have gotten into bed with Islamist sympathisers and the amount of anti semitism and basic hatred of their own country is now obvious.

The green party now at least locally are known as a party that has sympathies towards all manner of Islamist causes including Hamas's objective to wipe Israel of the face of the Earth.

Wouldn't be surprised if they produce a motion declaring climate change a Jewish conspiracy........

What does it say? I explained why and how it was unfair.

Just word salad about the past nothing about today.

Claiming that Jews all had a lovely time in the Middle East until 1948 is like someone from England pointing to the Raj and saying “look we built railways”.

Tell that to Yousef Shlaim. He was a wealthy and successful businessman in Baghdad who operated at the highest levels of commerce. When the family was forced to move to Israel following the 1948 fracture and subsequent asset laws, his status was stripped away. Classed as an oriental Jew by the elite Ashkanazi establishment he spent the remainder of his life broken and unable to adapt to the new social hierarchy. So tell me how thankful he would have been by the establishment of Israel.

And I could give you examples of Indians who did very well under the Raj - that’s my point! Many in the Indian civil service and the army were loyal to the Empire. However, no one would be foolish enough to use these examples to suggest the Raj was a benevolent force. That would be stupid.

Why on earth are you comparing India's occupation by Britain with Iraqi or any other Arab Jews who were citizens of their country and had been for centuries.

You have suggested that prior to 1948 Jews in the Middle East were treated well and lived in harmony and then you gave evidence of one person who did not want to move to Israel.
I am saying you can look at any oppressed people and pull out examples of individuals who did well during the period of time their people were oppressed. It’s not a complicated idea.
In most areas of the Middle East Jews and Christians were forced to pay the jizya and were treated as second class citizens - a form of apartheid you might say. In British India some Indians did very well, that does not mean most Indians were treated well and does not in any way justify the Raj.
I know you don’t like a parallel example - that doesn’t mean they aren’t relevant and don’t exist.

What the fuck are you on about. When have I ever implied that any where in the world there is a Utopian country with no religious intolerance or racism. Catholics and Protestants, Sunni and Shia, Ashkenazi and Mizrahi. How about Brahmin and Harijans. The point is, Arab Jews had it a hell of a lot better than any Jew in Europe. They were Arab citizens with full rights serving in government, the army, the legal profession as well as some of the most successful businessmen in society. Comparing them with Indians living under British occupation is ridiculous. You might as well be comparing them with Palestinians living under Israeli occupation in the West bank and Gaza.

You just have to see Fiddler on The Roof to see how terrble life was for Jews subjected to Pogroms and being thrown out at short notice. The theory behind Zionism by Theodor Herschle was that no matter how much Jews tried to integrate as secular Jews they would be marginated and persecued which became true in Germany. A few years after he wrote that statement. German Jews who were totally integrated became outcasts and persecuted just in the space of a few years. We are now seeing much the same thing in London. The treatment of Jews is the canary in the mine of modern society.

What is an Arab Jew? Well unless one parent is Arab and the other is Jewish

Do you mean Mizrahi Jews?

The Mizrahi Jews had a grand old time living in Muslim controlled States before 1948. All that not being allowed to own land, having to wear clothes that showed they are Jewish, not being allowed to marry anyone but a Jew, playing extra tax, sometimes even not being allowed to wear shoes, etc. Yep history has shown exactly how charming a life Jews can live under Islam the moment a dodgy leader is in charge or even in a far few cases the less dodgy ones.

Is the green party starting to regret it's association with Islamists?

Yes the majority of them are now. I don't think they all saw it before, a few did but not many. After motion and the backlash they see things a tiny bit clearer. Some will regret it because they know realise yes these particular Muslim are not like the moderate ones and are now showing outwood racism and want to topple Zippy. Others will regret it because the Islamists and their supporters in the party managed to show the cards too quickly. This means the Islamists are likely to have spoilt the success the party has been having.

I would say the Green party association with Islamists helped the Green party to grow the way it has done under Polanski. But will ultimately lead to its downfall as a serious political party that other parties such as Labour could have formed an alliance with.

Support for the Green party has declined in recent months, and after the vote Zionism is Racism, those with more moderate views will surely not want to be associated with a party associated with antisemitism. From the Observer (dated 11th October):

Greens face ‘existential threat’ as membership plummets after anti-Zionist motion

Support for the Green party is plummeting after it lost a crucial byelection and faces accusations of antisemitism. The latest Opinium poll for The Observer puts the Greens on their lowest share of the vote since Zack Polanski became leader last year.

The party has dropped to 9 percentage points, down from 16 points in May. The proportion of young people – those aged from 18 to 34 – planning to vote Green has halved over the past five months, from 28% at the time of the local elections in May to 14% now.

Polanski’s approval rating has plunged by seven points, making him the most unpopular of the party leaders. Only 17% of voters think he is doing a good job and just 14% believe he represents what most people think. According to the poll, 42% of the electorate believe the Greens have a problem with antisemitism.

The conference vote last weekend has triggered turmoil in the Greens. Four of the party’s five MPs are at odds with members and some senior figures have called for Polanski to resign.

Insiders suggest that thousands of members have quit the party over the past week in protest at the motion. One local party has seen a two-point drop in membership since last Sunday, with similar falls reported in other areas. If this were replicated across the country, it would mean 4,400 people had resigned.

observer.co.uk/news/politics/article/greens-face-existential-threat-as-membership-plummets-after-anti-zionist-motion

there was an article on the guardian suggesting setting up a new pro environmental party as the paper is a major supporter of environmental causes and having the main political wing of this philosophy suddenly becoming an anti Semitic quagmire is against their interests.

The greens may be able to reverse the notion to try and save their skins but will fhey? To remove the notion would be saying Zionism isn't racism and they would be alienating the Muslim vote in the inner city areas they want to do well in. It was such a stupid idea to let Islamists into the party and they have huge reputational damage now.

Green Party Polls - Latest Voting Intention Tracker (14th October)

7-poll moving average from all major UK pollsters, updated daily

Ref
22.4%
Lab
27.9%
Con
21.3%
LD
10.0%
Grn
9.0%

www.pollcheck.co.uk/polls/green-party/

9%? Given that 7% of the UK is Muslim I wonder if that does suggest that the greens are heavily reliant on the pro pal vote and really aren't in a position to backtrack from their onerous notion?

Andy Burnham has ruled out a future power-sharing deal with the Green Party – branding the party “antisemitic” over its controversial decision to describe Zionism as racism.

Challenged on the policy during prime minister’s questions Mr Burnham said he condemned it and would not support a “partnership” with Zack Polanski’s party while it remained in place.

He had been urged by Tory MP Dame Harriet Baldwin to rule out any future deal with the Greens in the same way Kemi Badenoch did with Reform UK, after she had branded their comments on Englishness racist – a stance praised earlier in PMQs by Mr Burnham.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/andy-burnham-polanski-green-party-deal-pmqs-b3066613.html

A lot of the 9% of the population who currently intend to vote Green will not be Muslims. You only have to look at the Green party leadership/spokespeople to see that a lot of them are white, middle class non Muslims. Some of them are still predominantly concerned about the environment but others have of course been drawn to the Green party because they have agreed with them on their stance on Gaza.

I would say that the fall in support for the Green party combined with Burnham publicly ruling out an alliance with the Greens in future, does show that they have gone too far with their latest controversial vote. And been influenced too much by a band of people holding extreme views within the party, some of whom are Islamists.

You said the Jewish communities “thrived” . Many middle class Indians “thrived”. Some Jews in the U.K. thrived in the 19th century held political power and even became PM if they gave up their religion.

The Jews were treated as second class citizens, they paid extra tax and many roles were barred to them. British Indians actually had it better, no extra tax. Both were oppressed people. Both were subject to unfair discriminatory laws.

We all picked and choose our arguments but your clear suggestion that Jews were well treated in the ME is nonsense, they coexisted, they played the game but they did not live as full citizens. This now makes your argument that Israel was needed less convincing. Also, the idea that within a majority Arab country Jews would be treated as equal citizens is simply laughable.

I can just see Joseph Cattaui Pasha or Sassoon Eskell wandering around their Parliaments in Cairo and Baghdad barefoot. I'll tell you where they really did encounter serious discrimination. In Israel. Upon arrival they were placed into rundown camps with bank managers, lawyers, and doctors assigned manual labor jobs. They were forced to do backbreaking work to earn meager rations. Not so for the Ashkanazi though who classed the Mizrahi as second class at best and were prioritised for housing and better jobs. Try reading 'Impossible Exodus: Iraqi Jews in Israel' by Orit Bashkin. She explains the reality far better than I can.

Don't take it from me. Read a book by someone who actually went through it. I recommend 'Three worlds, memoirs of an Arab Jew' by Avi Shlaim.

As I’ve said in previous posts, yes individuals did do well. Individual Indians did well and thrived. However, that does not mean the population was treated well.
Lord Wellington was Irish, people have written books about him, he became PM. That does not mean the British treated the Irish well.
One individual, a small number of Individuals does not mean on a population level people were treated well. The Jews and Christians in the ME were - and still are - treated as second class citizens.

You would make your argument about Israeli actions in Gaza today more convincing if you didn’t attempt to portray all previous actions by Arab governments as kind and caring. It makes it seem as if you are trying to whitewash the whole issue and ignore inconvenient facts, thereby making all your assertions questionable.

Instead of keep telling people to read books why not just come up with a Muslim majority country that treats Jewish people as equals today.

I like the book recommendations @Squeezingwildoranges. It’s good to keep learning things from different perspectives.

Just the one would be great.