Is the green party starting to regret it's association with Islamists?

[mids2019]

The green party, ostensibly about climate protection and general progressive values seems to have gotten into bed with Islamist sympathisers and the amount of anti semitism and basic hatred of their own country is now obvious.

The green party now at least locally are known as a party that has sympathies towards all manner of Islamist causes including Hamas's objective to wipe Israel of the face of the Earth.

Wouldn't be surprised if they produce a motion declaring climate change a Jewish conspiracy........

Ffs, okay, what about Oswald Mosley? Don't tell me he was imprisoned because that wasn't until the war had already been raging for 2 years.

Imagine being in so deep with Hamas that you have to try to pretend not to understand why it would be antisemitic to only think that one country, out of all the countries partitioned around the same time, has no right to exist, with that country just happening to be the one with half the world's Jews in it.

Quite frankly unless it is top secret in order to help stop the conflict then why all the cloak and dagger

(Also if it is what I am guessing not a secret at all but the something spoken about for ages and now they think they have daming evidence but really it doesn't change the fact that Hamas are a rapey death cult and have destroyed an hope of a normal life for the Gazens)99

I wasn't referring to Hitler, but to Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and his desire to adopt fascist models to combat Jewish presence in the region.

You were the one who mentioned the ‘historical official policy of Zionist ethnosuprematism’, so why not also look at the history on the Palestinian side?

Ate they Israel citizens and do they want to be?

If the answer is no then you have no argument there

If you are referring to me, I am not in with Hamas and have never expressed support for them, I have never said Israel should not exist. I do, however, believe that the country that half the worlds Jewish population is living in are behaving like amoral psychopaths with not a shred of empathy for the Palestinian people. That doesn't mean every Jewish person who lives in that country agrees with those values as I know many don't.

Are they allowed to be Israeli citizens. If not, how will we know if they want to be.

I have explained for what purpose in my posts

I get that you don't understand why and when it is relevant in a post. However you do it yourself too. There rather double standards if believe it to be wrong

(Are we now entering a two tier posting situation on mumsnet?😂)

Are you saying Muslims voting for political parties is somehow infiltrating British politics? So what? Muslims are allowed to have their own vision about how people in this country should live their lives and how we as a country should treat our neighbours. Diversity of thought is a good thing, it makes us stronger domestically and on the world stage.

Did you think for a moment about what you just wrote?

🤣

No conflict would have ever of happened and they would be either full Israeli citizens like everyone else that was absorbed into the new state back then or be living in Jordan.

What an argument 😂

Melanie Phillips explains this exactly point beautifully...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KjDAG5PnQ-k

Years earlier the Ottoman Empire( Muslim) officially entered World War I on the side of the Central Powers, signing a secret alliance with the German Empire on August 2, 1914, and formally joining the conflict in October 1914.
In November 1914, Sultan Mehmed V issued a religious proclamation calling on Muslims worldwide to wage a jihad (holy war) against the Allied Powers.

I have "comprehended" your explanation but I think you are not "comprehending" my point. The whole thing about whataboutisms is they are meant as a distraction. What does my opinion on Pakistan have to do with the fact that the ICJ is currently examining whether or not Israel is guilty of genocide. What does it have to do with the vilification of the Green party because they are being accused of having been overrun by Islamists just because Palestinians are predominantly Muslim.

Would it actually lead to peace in the region if Israel got back to the Green Line? Because it didn’t when they unilaterally disengaged from Gaza.

Why didn’t the Palestinians in Gaza have a go at self-determination back then? Israel completely withdrew its military and dismantled all Jewish settlements in Gaza. It even left behind intact agricultural infrastructure, like greenhouses.
Why wasn’t that moment used to build a peaceful, functioning state?

Two million Arabs living in Israel as citizens with rights shows me that a peaceful coexistence is possible. Why didn’t Gazans aim for that?

Why did they elect Hamas who called for the eradication of Israel in their founding charter? Did they think that would lead to amicable relations with their neighbours?

"There can be no stable and strong Jewish State so long as it has a Jewish majority of only 60 percent." David Ben Gurion - 1947. Are you seriously saying that Israel would have happily allowed all Palestinians to become Israeli citizens. I'll tell which Palestinians would definitely have been happy to become Israeli citizens. The village of Deir Yassin! Didn't really work out for them.

Well, your choice of course but the usual aim of whataboutery is to shut down the debate so if your "moral high ground stance" is that you refuse to engage with it then it's a successful tactic isn't it. And that's really not good for discussion and debate on any topic.

I'm not sure what you are saying there. Are you saying if I don't indulge the person trying to detract from the core issue of the debate, I am somehow shutting it down.

Firstly the Islamist issue in the Green isn't what you have been talking about in most your posts. Which in itself is just derailing and whataboutism but people including myself have humoured you somewhat.

Secondly you talk about genocide, ethnosupremacist and various other things but don't like being questioned about these things. It is not whataboutism/distraction to question you on why you believe something or whether you only believe it in regards to one situation. You have literally opened the door to debate by not just being factually but using rhetoric and well worn claims at this point to your own posts. However you won't answer simple questions about the language or rhetoric you use. Frankly it just makes you look like a very bad faith actor rather than someone that is open to an honest debate

Thirdly, so you feel the Green party is being vilified. Do you not believe they may have members that have done something wrong lately? Because a lot of Green party members do.

Finally, personally and I can o ly talk for myself of course. Pals being Muslim and the Islamists in the Green party isn't tbe same thing. There are also moderate muslims in the Green party I imagine. However Hamas are Islamists rather than just moderate muslims so are many of the new Green party members of which I have a problem with. Extremist Islamist ideological thinking has no place in British politics. Yes I do feel the same way about the far right before you ask that.

The quote is from 1947, and a quick google shows that Ben Gurion didn’t always hold that view and that there’s a bit more context to it:

1. The Early Phase (1910s–1920s): Socialist Class Solidarity
As a young Marxist-Zionist leader, Ben-Gurion initially dismissed the idea that Arabs and Jews were inherently incompatible. He believed that Jewish and Arab working classes would unite to overthrow feudal landowners. During this period, he did not focus heavily on absolute percentages because he assumed a democratic, socialist society would naturally accommodate both peoples through shared class interests.

2. The Partition Phase (1937–1947): Pragmatism and the 60% Crisis
The violent Arab revolts of 1929 and 1936 shattered Ben-Gurion's belief in class solidarity, forcing him to accept that Palestinian Arab nationalism was fundamentally opposed to Zionism.
When the British Peel Commission proposed partition in 1937, Ben-Gurion enthusiastically supported it—even though the proposed borders would have created a state with a very slim Jewish majority.
By December 1947, the impending British withdrawal and the outbreak of hostilities forced him to look cold-eyed at the UN lines. With roughly 520,000 Jews and 350,000 Arabs within the proposed borders, he panicked that a democratic state with a 40% hostile minority could not survive a war of independence. This is when he stated that a 60% majority was too unstable.

3. The Later Phase (1949–1960s): Prioritising Democracy Over Total Land
The 1948 war radically altered Israel's demographics due to the flight and expulsion of Palestinian refugees, leaving Israel with a Jewish majority of over 80%.
Once a stable majority was secured, Ben-Gurion actually resisted right-wing demands to conquer the West Bank and Gaza during the 1948 war and afterwards.
In a famous 1949 speech to the Knesset, he explicitly argued that Israel could not remain both a Jewish state and a democracy if it annexed territories with millions of non-Jewish inhabitants. He firmly concluded that it was better to have a smaller state with an absolute Jewish majority than "the whole Land of Israel" without one.

Didn't work out for many Jewish villages either, especially those in what Jordan renamed the west bank. The offer was made even if some people disagreed. Similar to the way our politicians disagree and make statements. It was not a perfect situation and I don't myself agree with the way Israel was founded but that doesn't take away from the fact that many Arabs did not want to be citizens from the very beginning. Something I don't actually blame them for, I mean why would they. It also doesn't change the fact that we have Hamas and the PA still wanting to be in charge. We have pro pal protests asking for a pal state of their own, I presume some of these people have discussed this with pals. So your previous question of "Are they allowed to be Israeli citizens. If not, how will we know if they want to be." Is a little interesting to say the least.

Interestingly my father's cousin was a human rights lawyer that founded a global firm. One of the things they were involved with was helping vulnerable pals in G & WB get Israel citizenship. Mostly it was gays or people at risk for political reasons. It wasn't an easy process but neither is the immigration process in most countries. Unfortunately things have got tougher in the last few years because of security getting tougher than ever.

(Going off to catch up on the Colin the cake thread and the one about threads we don't want to see on mumsnet)

That's because you're ignoring the fact that Israel is fighting a defensive war against a government that is sworn to destroy it, even though Israel gave them every chance to run as a functioning country by withdrawing completely in 2005, but instead of spending the billions of international aid on making Gaza prosperous, Hamas, the Gazan people's choice, spent it all on digging tunnels under hospitals and schools for the exact purpose of capturing the minds of Useful Idiots when they eventually launched their gleeful murderous attack on women and children in Israel.

And you're ignoring the fact that the IDF takes great pains to try to warn civilians to leave the buildings it's about to bomb, more pains than any other actor in any other conflict in the world, yet this is the only conflict you give your energy to.

And the reason you're ignoring these facts is that you can't afford not to, because you've made such a grave mistake that you can't afford to admit it

(Thanks to @Manhattanman for bringing my attention to this video, which absolutely nails it.)

Diversity is our strength has been dismantled.

If diversity is so great why don’t the Islamists welcome Jews, or gays or trans?

Depends how discerning you are about your sources and whether you choose to believe them. Propaganda works both ways:

Melanie Phillips is a British journalist, author, and conservative political commentator known for writing on social and political issues from a right-wing and Zionist perspective. 1]

• Career Background: She is a columnist who writes for publications such as The Times, The Jerusalem Post, and the Jewish News Syndicate, and previously wrote for outlets like The Guardian, The Spectator, and the Daily Mail. 1]
• Hamas and Gaza Commentary: In public appearances—such as on BBC Question Time in March 2024—she has argued that claims of a food or aid crisis in Gaza are untrue, pointing to online videos of stocked markets and claiming that aid blockages were due to Hamas theft. Fact-checkers, including The i Paper, found no evidence to support these assertions. 1]

Thank you for actually writing a debatable post but also thank you for confirming the accuracy of the quote and its exact context. As you say, by 1947, Ben Gurion believed a state with a large Palestinian minority was unsustainable. You've effectively proven my point. The narrative that Israel would have 'happily absorbed everyone as full citizens' is modern fiction.
Furthermore, noting that a stable 80% majority was secured by 1949 completely glosses over how it was secured. Through the mass displacement of hundreds of thousands of people. Something called the Nakba. I know you chose to ignore it but Deir Yassin?
In a way, I actually respect Ben Gurion's honesty far more than the hypocritic lies we see today. He was unapologetic about the fact his treatment of Palestinians was totally unfair. He openly admitted the reality of what was being done. As he famously told Nahum Goldmann, “Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural. We have taken their country. They only see one thing. We have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?”
Ben Gurion knew exactly what he was doing, and he expected the Palestinians to be furious about it. Trying to rewrite his calculated demographic engineering into a tale of peaceful democratic 'phases' ignores both the history and the words of the man himself. As early as 1937 he had planned to take the whole of Palestine. He explicitly stated that “After the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine.” As I said, I actually admire the man’s honesty but don’t pretend there was ever any intention of sharing the land as the father of Zionism, Theodor Hertzl, envisaged.