Discussion of the 26 June Gaza protest calling for self-rule

[dairydebris]

This is a thread for us to discuss the planned June 26 protest by Gazan Palestinians- the aim of which is to pressure Hamas to honour the ceasefire agreement and allow Gazans self rule.

Brave people who take part.

Watching and wishing them safety and hoping they can suceed.

Blatant whataboutism.

”It should really be him that is removed from power”.

Trump instead of Hamas, really? You think he’s worse than Hamas and feel so strongly about that you would rather divert the conversation from the Gazan protests to yet more talk about Trump. Why not stick to what the thread is about. Which is yet more oppression for the people of Gaza, a subject that normally interests you greatly when the subject is Israel doing the oppressing.

This thread is about Hamas and how they are ruling through fear and how some Gazans have even risked their lives to be heard criticising them.

It’s not about Trump or Netanyahu. God knows it’s hard enough for the people of Gaza to speak out without their voices being drowned out by whataboutisms.

Goodness me. I make a PH7 post about protests, and I state 1 opinion about elections being needed and I am accused of all sorts.Then I post an aside about Trump being a threat to democracy worldwide and I am accused again.

No mention of the content of what I posted, Just accusing the poster of all sorts.

Ok, here is an alternate idea about the protests in Gaza. I have not seen this mentioned in the thread anywhere, but where I live it would be considered very carefully if there was a call to protest on social media. ( Western SM is banned where I am, this is the only site I can post on that is western SM, so far as I know - so please don't try to have me banned).

100 flowers. It's a tool used by authoritarian Governments and dictators the world over. Named after a Mao campaign. It is used to "flush" dissenters out. Hamas could have encouraged the protest. So it could round up anyone who attended.

That could account for the low turnout, if that was the case, and the lack of reporting. However, there is the issue that Israel endorsed the protest. So back to the same problem. Who organised it ?

And really, this is why it was daft for Israel to endorse it. Because if there was an anti Trump protest in Gaza, people would assume it was Hamas who set it up. The anti Hamas protest ? Who organised it ? That matters. Israel endorsing it is not good. They should have stayed quiet.

Do you think if international press were allowed into Gaza Hamas would allow them to report freely? Would allow them to file interviews not favorable to Hamas? Without violent reprisal?

I think press should be allowed in too. But I don't believe they would be allowed to report freely. The voices of people would come to us filtered through Hamas' lens.

More examples of Palestinians being used to further other agendas is what I think we'd get. What do you think?

I don't see what quoting stats about citizens in Israel- who have the right to vote- supporting Netanyahu has got to do with a protect in Gaza. Unless your only point was to point out Israel bad again?
Israelis ( Arab snd Jewish etc ) have a vote. They chose Netanyahu. Americans have a vote. They chose Trump. They have a voice.
Gazan Palestinians do not. They havent had a vote since 2005. You can't lay the lack of elections at Israel's door. The lack of elections in Gaza is down to Hamas.
Again, why I was so interested to see coverage of these protests if they went ahead.
Let us know if there is coverage youre aware of that we haven't seen yet.

What are you trying to suggest, that Israel organised the protest just because they endorsed it on X?

It really is incredible how you can make anything bad that happens Israel's fault. The organisers appear mainly to be Palestinians living overseas, some have openly put their names to it since they are in a safer place than Palestinians living in Gaza. People like Gaza-born Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, a Palestinian humanitarian activist.

Honestly, Israel post a tweet and that is pounced on as suspicious. Agree they should have refrained from commenting, but a tweet doesn't make them responsible for Gazan protests against Hamas. That's just nonsense.

Don’t you care about Gazans being oppressed by Hamas? You would rather talk about anything else it seems.

Fair point re elections. That is why I said they need elections.

And Isreal are the occupying force. What are they offering the Gazans if Hamas is overthrown ? Sorry, I mean when Hamas are overthrown.

Israel.
I'm not interested in engaging with you over that particular question on this thread. Suffice to say I hope that Gazan Palestinians will get to the chance to chose a Palestinian leadership that holds their best interests at heart, not Israel. It shouldn't be for Palestinians in Gaza to ask what Israel can offer them, it should be for them to ask what their own leadership can offer them.
This thread is to amplify the voices of those who protested if they did and to discuss that.

I disagree.
There is acknowledgment of Israel’s responsibility, and then there is trying to shoehorn in Israel as being the problem, whilst briefly skipping over the fact that the Palestinians have zero chance on their own of overthrowing Hamas.
Some of the people have been brave enough to speak.
Who knows if these same people will now be murdered by Hamas as a lesson to other Palestinians not to ever think about trying to overthrow them.
Of course these deaths will not be reported or known outside of Gaza as murdered by Hamas.
Nothing will change for them and they will still be in the same state 5, 10, 50 years down the line until there is international condemnation of Hamas, not just constantly “but Israel” into every argument.

Well said.

We won’t know until they are allowed in by Israel but I would imagine that being given a free rein to report would be more incriminating for Israel than any Hamas propaganda.

Thanks. I think I sort of messed up what I was trying say. I left too many gaps that I assumed people would fill.

Protests are not always a good way to justify change of government/regime change. Because there are too many variables.

For example, people outside of Britain who only read right wing news might think the UK is on the brink of civil war, that the UK has a hated authoritarian Marxist government, and that another country should send an army in. That is nonsense, but there are people believe this.

And yes, there are mass protests that should be listened to. Iran for example, HK against the CCP, the Arab spring perhaps. But with the Arab spring, it is complex, as we saw in Syria.

Anti Assad. Good stuff. Get behind that. Then it's oh... a lot of these protesters are not protesting for democracy, they want something else.

I think the same likely applies to Gaza. Because they might be protesting against Hamas, but what are they protesting for.

And I think that is what I am trying to say. It's what they are protesting for is equally as important as what they are against. So auto support won't come from me, unless it is clear what they want.

After all, the PRC, Iran, Vietnam, to name a few, were all founded on protest and revolution.

I think I still made a hash of getting my thought across.

I think your point was clear and I am very doubtful that this could end well. Feels way too manipulative.

Fully agree with this:

And there are people hoping to use Gaza protests against HAMAS as justification to keep bombing. And there will be people hoping for HAMAS to do a brutal crackdown on the protests so they can say " See, we need to bomb HAMAS out of existence.

It's such a shame that you couldn't answer my question directly about whether or not you believe Hamas would allow international press to report freely.

Instead you've jumped straight to what you presume Gazan Palestinians would say, which is a perfect example of what I was talking about above- projecting your own voice onto Palestinian voices.

I'm increasingly coming to believe any discourse is impossible on this forum. There's seemingly zero possibility of discussing anything for posters who just wish to jump into the conversation to press the point of 'Israel bad' with no nuance or actual thought put into the issues surrounding this conflict.

Hence I ask- do you think Hamas would allow free reporting by international press? and your only answer is 'well if they could they'd say Israel Bad'.

It's really a shame as I guess it illustrates the larger problem in society... and then if we can't manage a decent discussion on here what chance do the people actually affected directly by this conflict have?

Don't worry about answering, it was rhetorical.

I answered your question honestly - I don’t know. Do you?

I don’t know why you have misquoted my answer.

Quote " It's really a shame as I guess it illustrates the larger problem in society... and then if we can't manage a decent discussion on here what chance do the people actually affected directly by this conflict have?"

Why is it a larger problem in society?

I watched a film today about a girl who blew up a petrol station as a protest against the Vietnam war. A Ewan McGregor film, If this forum had been about during the Vietnam war there would have been more division than today over Gaza.

On reporting by the international press, the Mao era is within living memory, his death toll was 50 million plus, and we still do not know what went on. The Party of Mao is still in power.

And no, I don't think this is a whataboutism. Its about perspective. There are about a dozen posters here talking about a maybe protest in Gaza, with maybe a few hundred people at it ?

And it's a problem with society ? Nah.

Because these folk who have been named as the social media organisers of the protest... almost anyone can engage with them (I cant) Or try to. Or even read all their posts to see where they are coming from.

I honestly don't know if Gaza has social media. But if they do, and people are reading it, then this board should not need the news to tell people what is going on.

As a world society, we have never been better connected. So we should try to use it rather then deciding it divides us.

Very well said.

"He said: “That hospital is now a central hub for Hamas’s intelligence, militancy, and internal repression.”"

Surely not. Hamas operate in hospitals. Much denied but often claimed.

I believe that until Hamas are gone there is no moving forward 😕

True

Yes I agree that is so obvious but is often overlooked.

whether or not you believe Hamas would allow international press to report freely.
Pre Oct 7th there was independent press in Gaza and yes they were often intimidated, harassed and threatened by Hamas for reporting on certain incidents and this would likely happen again and they would, as before, report that. It is not a good enough reason to ban them. They are professional experienced journalists they have experience reporting from volatile areas, from war zones, from areas where access is restricted etc and they know how to manage, see through it and report from that. Below is the open letter that was sent last year from 130 global leaders of news and press freedom organisations calling on world leaders, governments, and international institutions to act immediately to ensure journalists from outside Gaza are given immediate, independent access to the territory. There is no good enough excuse as to why this has not happened.

Open letter from media and press freedom organisations on Gaza access
We, the undersigned, call for immediate, independent, and unrestricted international media access to Gaza and for full protection of journalists who continue to report under siege.
For 20 months, the Israeli authorities have refused to grant journalists outside of Gaza independent access to the Palestinian territory – a situation that is without precedent in modern warfare. Local journalists, those best positioned to tell the truth, face displacement and starvation. To date, nearly 200 journalists have been killed by the Israeli military. Many more have been injured and face constant threats to their lives for doing their jobs: bearing witness. This is a direct attack on press freedom and the right to information.
We understand the inherent risks in reporting from war zones. These are risks that many of our organizations have taken over decades in order to investigate, document developments as they occur, and understand the impacts of war.
At this pivotal moment, with renewed military action and efforts to resume the flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza, it is vital that Israel open Gaza’s borders for international journalists to be able to report freely and that Israel abides by its international obligations to protect journalists as civilians.
We call on world leaders, governments, and international institutions to act immediately to ensure this.

Instead you've jumped straight to what you presume Gazan Palestinians would say,
They did not do this at all you are doing a fair bit of presuming yourself here

In that case it will never move forward.

Because kill a thousand Hamas, they will be replaced. Maybe not a thousand perhaps. We could say 950, or 1050. I am not saying killing terrorist creates more, rather it's a case of if the cause is still there, there will be people willing to pick up arms to fight for it.

The way to deal with Hamas, in my opinion, is to at least begin talking about 2 states. Do that, and that 1000 will drop anyway.

Enact a two state, and that 1000 might drop to 2 individuals.

I could not agree with this more.

The occupation of Palestine has been a master class in what not to do to create support for terrorist entities. Illegal detentions, killings, economic sanctions, unfair legal practices and permits. All of this makes people poor and angry. Poor and angry people with no hope support radical solutions. .
Look at the IRA it's roots were in working class people who were angry at their unfair treatment.
The whole thing is being repeated in the West Bank. People are attacked and no judicial system will support them . Desperate people turn to groups like this whose violent means perpetuate the cycle .

For a country so full of technological advances and bright minds Israel has a blind spot with its treatment of Palestinians.

I was going to mention the IRA, but I thought I would be accused of whataboutism. But yes, there are still some factions of the IRA about, in very small numbers. I recall there was a car bomb last year, and basically all sides said "FFS, wind it in".

I stand to be corrected here but there was similar with the Maoists in Nepal. Decades of war, then they were invited into the political mainstream and the war ended.

And we can go to State level. The Vietnamese Communist who won the war. Relations now normalized.

They have to talk sooner or later. Bombs don't work.

It’s chicken and egg because there won’t be 2 states while Hamas are there but Hamas won’t leave because there aren’t 2 states.

Which means I can see it never moving forward. Or perhaps it’s better to say, not for the foreseeable future.