Let's face it Iran is indiscriminatly hitting Israeli civilians targets including schools using cluster bombs.....

[mids2019]

Iran is firing missiles into heavily populated Israeli towns and have abandoned the pretence of targeting anything military.....this is just pure terrorism and does make you think what would happen if Iran did manage to develop a nuclear weapon.

Just hoping more of the missile launch sites can be taken out and this terrorist regime falls.

The UK will be hosting these countries leaders to work on solutions to open the Straits of Hormuz

I said "You seem intent on finding problems where there are not any. "

Finding a way to pay the Iranian Government is not a problem. The IRGC is not the Government. And in any case, the proscription orders that I have looked at appear to differentiate between different branches. If payment IS needed, and lets not forget, it will be private companies mainly, a way will be found. These companies do tend to be multinational.

Trump does stuff like this all the time. He is an expert at bypassing laws.

So now they’re using Iran as a testing site !

That still doesn’t remove the issue of a brutal authoritarian force making loads of money from it, is that good or bad in your opinion?

Well that’s the situation US and Israel have brought us to. They started a war. They closing of the Strait was predicted.
So I assume they decided that the RoW would have to negotiate with Iran.

You are always keen to ask others questions, but you never seem to want to answer any yourself.

The regime is still in place, what do you suggest countries do instead?

Why are you always moving the goalposts then putting it on posters ?

I am sure MPs etc in all the various governments will discuss it if it comes to it. The word being IF. If they have democratic governments being a big "if"

All the Gulf states are authoritarian. And the world appears to manage ok with that somehow. Indeed, depending on how it is measured, as much as 75% of the worlds population lives under authoritarianism. Source :

New “Tyranny Tracker” maps the world’s authori­tarian regimes (democracywithoutborders.org)

"HRF notes that according to the tracker’s current assessments, 75 percent of the world’s population lives under authoritarianism."

You will be able to find different numbers, because it depends on how it is measured. That goes without saying.

And no, this is not me hand waving away the brutality in Iran. This is me being aware that the world is not exactly an ethical place. And goodness me, there are enough posters on here who appear to cheer on war to make that clear to any reader.

I myself am anti war, anti authoritarianism, pro democracy and pro freedom of the press.

The way I took it was that CITME board is full of arguments, many petty, but sadly lots of posts that are extreme such as antisemitism or racism (most are deleted). Some more extreme views sometimes. Don't ask me for examples because lots are deleted. I don't even open some threads, they are on the not to bother with list.

That's my opinion of what she meant, I could be incorrect of course.

You put it on me that I was ‘inventing problems’ and stopping the funds flowing.

I also know you’ve called the IRGC a brutal military force before so I wondered why un-proscribing was being suggested or why my not wanting them to get the funds was an issue.

That’s ok your post here is in keeping with how you post too.

In that region - they all use brutal force.

It is a part of the world that operates differently from ours.

And I repeat - they all use brutal force against their enemies.

We used to too, when we had an empire. We lost the empire and found high moral ground!

But this is why we should not, under any circumstances, get involved in this fight.

I was referring my earlier post which politely asked you a question. Yes, asking politely is in keeping with how I post!

China is a brutal authoritarian force.

Almost everything in your house will come from there, one way or another.

Almost all your waste will be sent back there.

They will have made money from you to continue being a brutal authoritarian force.

This is not an argument.

I meant the one I quoted.

I don’t think this is an argument tbf. No one has proscribed China. Do you believe anyone should be proscribed generally?

Who said they want to 'get round problems so the IRGC can make so much money'? That was you.

If the Iranians remain in control of the SOH, they remain in control. They can impose whatever rules they like. Blame Trump and Israel for starting a war and creating this situation where Iran is benefitting instead of throwing around accusations on here.

It's a repeated theme on multiple threads.

Interesting how you casually brush off the pp's valid concerns over hypocrisy and double standards when it happens to fit with your view of the situation.

No, most people do not accept that Israel is not a danger to anyone and most people do not accept that Iran is an international danger, at least those who haven't swallowed the Telegraph and DM whole.
It really is ironic that you say this in reference to Iran when this is literally what Israel is doing and has been doing for decades: 'because of the desire to expand it's idealogy into places where it feels it can by violent means'
It has already been pointed out, several time, that Israel has nuclear weapons and may use them, even in this conflict if the US decides to pull out and they lose control. Now that would be extremely dangerous.

Things that you think are 'obvious to most' , in the opinion of @dairydebris on MN, are not facts.

Ahem. Erm... This is not off on a tangent because it is relevant to what you are talking about re paying Iran for passage of the SoH.

You said :"No one has proscribed China."

Something I hardly ever say to anyone. Google it. But instead of using "proscribed", use the word "sanctions"'. And note from chats on this and other threads you post on what "proscription" is, and why it is done. And the same for "sanctions".

There are hundreds if not thousands of PRC individuals/ companies/ individuals sanctioned by the UK and other countries. Too many to even attempt to list here. So just google it.

I use the term "PRC" by the way because there are 2 countries called China. The PRC and the ROC. So I use it to differentiate, not because I am a pro CPC tankie, before you suggest that.

And here we are. The PRC is heavily sanctioned and the world manages to do business with them. When you buy a phone or a brush do you think about what many nations have called a genocide in Xinjiang against the Uighur people ? The forced labour. The human rights abuses. You must have heard about it right ?

You must have heard about the Great Leap Forward, The Cultural Revolution, Tiananmen Square etc. All within living memory, events that caused somewhere between 45 to 70 million deaths ? Mao in fact holds the record for the biggest killer of the 20th century, if not the history of humanity. How about the brutal oppression of Tibet? The military buildup to invade the ROC (Taiwan). The whole South China Sea thing.

And that Regime is still in place. And a large percentage of what you buy comes from there. All that money you spend is feeding into the same Regime, the CPC.

So when you say:

"You put it on me that I was ‘inventing problems’ and stopping the funds flowing. I also know you’ve called the IRGC a brutal military force before so I wondered why un-proscribing was being suggested or why my not wanting them to get the funds was an issue."

I say : There are always way to pay. You already do it near every time you go to the shop. The world is not an ethical place.

As a matter of interest. Do YOU think the PRC should be bombed to get Regime change ? After all, the regime there is worse than that in Iran. Their death toll in living memory is in the 10s of millions. At the top end of the 10's of millions. Not far off the 100 million mark. And on top of that, they support the Regime in Iran. They help prop it up. They keep it going. So bomb them ?

International relations should not be full of double standards, do you agree? International relations, and by extension, international law and norms, rely on people/states believing in its legitimacy. If it is used by Western powers as a tool of foreign policy to advance their own geopolitical agendas it loses that legitimacy and less nations will feel obliged to be bound by such laws and norms.

If the world is left to be run only by the ‘powerful’, adopting a ‘might is right’ approach whereby nation states can use their stronger military and economic leverage to decimate other nations, along with their civilian populations, where does that leave us? How is the West then any better than those it purports to fight against?

Your statement of what “most people accept’, is untrue. The numbers show that, outside of Israel, Iran is not perceived as a major or top threat by states globally (Pew Research study 2025). In terms of your statement that “most people accept Israel isn’t a danger”, perhaps this is true for you, but is not rooted in fact. The Arab Opinion Index 2024-2025 found that across 15 Arab states, 44% of people identified Isreal as the main threat to the security of their country, with 21% naming the U.S. as the second greatest threat. Only 6% named Iran as the greatest threat. I can’t even tell you that most people across Western nations, or internationally, believe that Iran is the greatest threat to security as they didn’t feature. In fact, many Western nations now see the U.S. as a top security threat (65% in Germany, 61% in Spain, 60% in Denmark, 56% in Canada, and even in the UK 47% view the US a security threat while 70% of people there oppose the UK joining the war while 57% view the attack as a mistake).

I won’t comment on your use of the phrase “filthy little corner”.

edited to correct a typo.

I understand the caveat and appreciate your admission that they probably have nuclear weapons and should also open those weapons up for inspection like all other nuclear states.

While you can understand that Israel may feel a need to have such weapons, one might argue that Iran will also now feel the need to have such weapons to deter future attacks by the U.S. and/or Israel. And round and round we go until we can’t move on planet earth for all the nuclear weapons – and God forbid any nation actually uses one (again).

I accept your assertion that you do not sidestep any criticism of Isreal – your reluctance to address any of the points raised in my pp regarding attacks by or deaths caused by the actions of the Israeli state led me to this opinion; the points were made to support the argument of a double standard I have previously mentioned. We must be free to criticise the actions of any and all nation states if they contravene international law and conventions, including Israel.

Thank you for your polite tone, that is appreciated and rarer than it should be in these debates where people often prefer point scoring to attempting to actually debate controversial topics (which makes it - shall we say - a difficult corner of MN).

I will never agree that Iran should be allowed to develop nuclear weapons. I can understand why they would want to - both before and especially after recent events like the current war - but they are too aggressive and volatile, in my opinion. Their conduct towards their neighbours in the current war only reinforces this view, which I already held because of their funding of proxies to attack other countries. I am in good company with this opinion (statement from G7 & High Representative of the European Union).

Some argue that other aggressive countries already have them, but I don't personally consider that much of an argument about why Iran should be allowed to develop them too. If Russia didn't already have nuclear weapons I wouldn't endorse them developing them now, especially after their attack on Ukraine. If the US didn't already have nuclear weapons, I wouldn't endorse them developing them now under Trump. And the same is true of Israel.

One thing though - these countries haven't used their nuclear weapons in recent wars (assuming Israel have them). It is my opinion that Iran couldn't be trusted not to use them if they had them. Yes that's opinion only but who wants to put that to the test?

I think it’s going to derail too much to go into China but happy to respond on another thread.

On paying the IRGC yes of course it can be done, all sorts of illegal and bad people get paid every day.

I don’t think it’s a positive thing that they will be paid due to what they do. I don’t think it should happen and moreover going back to the original point it will sour politically.

What do you think should happen to the Straits?