Let's face it Iran is indiscriminatly hitting Israeli civilians targets including schools using cluster bombs.....

[mids2019]

Iran is firing missiles into heavily populated Israeli towns and have abandoned the pretence of targeting anything military.....this is just pure terrorism and does make you think what would happen if Iran did manage to develop a nuclear weapon.

Just hoping more of the missile launch sites can be taken out and this terrorist regime falls.

You need to be careful with this line of reasoning though @dairydebris .

Hamas was supported and funded by Israel ...

Quote" Since when does a whole thread get held up till one poster is satisfied with another posters answer?"

Nobody is holding anything up. Present the evidence for your claim or stop repeating your claim. In the meantime everyone can post whatever they want.

Quote " The point of counter terrorism is to stop things happening, not wait for something to happen and then say, oh right, now I believe Iran is a threat."

Counter terrorism yes. But we are talking about a war here. Are you confusing counter terrorism with justification for war ? I am not.

It appears some folk did not learn the lessons from the 2nd Iraq war. And I think this segment of the thread is proving that some folk are accepting, and parroting, reasons given for war without asking to see a shred of evidence being presented.

As a PP posted above:

RIP Dr David Kelly.

Israel is under threat from Hamas because they are terrorists.

They are proscribed because they are terrorists.

They are not proscribed because they are a risk to our allies, although of course being terrorists they are also a risk to our allies. They are proscribed because of their terrorist activities and to make them illegal and therefore possible to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law in the UK.

There are many international groups proscribed, the Wagner group, Boko Haram, Sonnenkrieg Division, ISIS. These groups haven't actually commited much terrorism in the UK, but are obviously terrorists, and so are proscribed so as to make them illegal and to enable speedy prosecution in the UK if they were to try anything here, and to discourage association with these groups by UK citizens. You may say they are no direct threat either, yet they are still proscribed. Were these proscriptions diplomatic gestures too? Or because they are terrorists whom we wish to discourage in the UK?

You may of course see it as an act of solidarity with Israel, but it's not the reason they are proscribed. They are proscribed because they are terrorists.

Its literally a list of terrorists.

Also laid out clearly many times over.

I don’t think being on the ground as you put it is that much of a factor. There are 84 proscribed groups here, not all will be direct threats on the ground.

Canada for example have proscribed the IRGC. The threat from an IRGC leaders is much higher in the region, not least to the people who live in Iran.

It’s also to stop support online and offline. It helps that these threads and other sites can’t have Hamas support as it’s illegal.

Thanks I don't feel I need to be careful. Happy to allow that encouraging Hamas in any way shape or form as BN did was a huge strategic error. I'm no fan of his.
Doesn't at all detract from my overall point about Iran's malign influence.

As I said, I don't think the US should have prosecuted this war at all without a vastly better plan for, amongst others, a much better plan for the Strait and for getting alternative leadership in place. For me the fact that Iran is a major exporter of terror is not enough to start a war.

Once again, I was merely questioning whether or not you actually accept that Iran is a major exporter of terrorism and a threat in the UK which it now appears you do. I don't know why you didn't just say that 10 posts ago when I asked but I'm glad we are here finally.

Small mercies.

Quote : "Once again, I was merely questioning whether or not you actually accept that Iran is a major exporter of terrorism and a threat in the UK which it now appears you do"

This is what I said. I even bolded it to make it clear:

"As for If I think Iran is a major sponsor of terror ? Against Isreal yes. Against the rest of the world no"

That is not what you claim I said.

And what I said is a far cry from the biggest in the world claim. Details do and should matter when it comes to justifying war.

You seem to be using me as some sort of a proxy for a fight with Trump & Netanyahu. Im not prosecuting the war, I'm not even arguing its a good idea. I am arguing that Iran is a massive threat to global security and a monstrous regime. Very, very weird that that is controversial.

OK - I see what you are saying there.

Is the IRA proscribed in Israel?

Not intended as an antagonistic question by the way - just to understand of all countries proscribe in the same way and for the same reasons.

I agree that it does not detract from your overall point about Iran's malign influence.

Malign influence is a far cry from the biggest threat in the world though, no?

As in, does it justify the potential collapse of the world's economy and a long, expensive, heartbreaking war?

No proxy at all.

Your statement :

" Its the biggest sponsor of terrorism in the world and a threat to all of us."

I am just asking for evidence for this claim. If you or anyone else had said " Here, look at this document from source A", then it's cool. Discuss the document blah blah. If no evidence, then just say it's an incorrect statement.

Iran is an exporter of terrorism to Israel - undoubtedly.

And that is a massive threat to Israel, also undoubted but it is regional.

Israel are very well funded by both EU and US to deal with Iran, backed up with intel, sanctions and so on.

Iran as an exporter of mass terror events in the world at large, such that we all have to go to war?

Not proven. By any metric.

FFS. How many times???

This is harassment now.

I don't know, I guess I see it as a semantic rather than terribly important point.

Whether or not its the biggest, its still massive and has a direct effect on many, many lives all over the world, from Yemen to Pakistan to Europe to Israel.

I think the discussion about whether or not this war is justified is terribly important but I don't think whether or not Iran is the absolute worst is the crux of it. For me the crux of whether or not the war is justified is tied up mainly with it's odds of success. I would like to see the Iranian regime gone. But war has awful costs in civilian life and destruction of property and like you said the world's economy... and I believe this war has been prosecuted without proper attention to the odds of success weighed against the cost of the war.

I both think Iran is a massive ( possibly biggest, possibly not, how can we measure etc ) sponsor of terror all over the world and this war looks to be a huge miscalculation.

I wish wish wish there had been a better plan for it. Because I believe the regime in Iran is as close to pure evil as humans get.

The stakes are too high to brush off the question of why we are doing this as semantic.

It is really important to qualify the reasons for war - never more important than when the countries doing it are led by aggressive, self interested, corrupt leaders.

It is also really important when the world economy is a stake - that leads to World Wars in a heart beat.

And it is massively important when a country is about to be bombed into the middle ages, with terrible things done to the population on the ground - death, starvation, homelessness, and so on. It is so utterly fucking callous.

Iran might well be a problem but the Israelis have show they can infiltrate, blow up cell phones and do all that high class, movie style spy craft. Do that!

@MaraladeorJam

💯 »It is really important to qualify the reasons for war - never more important than when the countries doing it are led by aggressive, self interested, corrupt leaders. »

This war is clearly in the interest of Israel, and if Rubio initial words true - the U.S. entered the war because of Israel, which is being led by a man postponing a fraud trial and has a warrant out for his arrest by the ICJ for potential war crimes.

I can’t see why diplomacy wasn’t given more time from the U.S. perspective given that events unfolding now were completely predictable.

»Iran might well be a problem but the Israelis have show they can infiltrate, blow up cell phones and do all that high class, movie style spy craft. »

Iran may fund terrorism but which countries have killed or injured more people due to potential war crimes, through breaking international law? I wouldn’t put Iran high up in the list.

I believe many consider the basis for this war itself is illegal- only of one the reasons why other countries not joining US and Israel in this war.

Just wondering why you bother 🤔

You can explain and explain again. Keep it simple or go into detail but, but, but. Is it worth bothering?

"Iran may fund terrorism but which countries have killed or injured more people due to potential war crimes, through breaking international law? I wouldn’t put Iran high up in the list."

Have you read about how Iran sent boys into the Iran / Iraq conflict to clear minefields with plastic keys to paradise as their armour?

Have you read about the number of political dissidents Iran has jailed and murdered since 197, without even including what has happened in the last year?

Have you read about how Iran sponsors the Houthis and the terrible consequences that has had for innocent civilians in Yemen? How many children have starved to death?

Are you really sure you wouldn't put Iran far up this list?

And if youre talking purely about numbers of deaths from war crimes apart from Iran, have you looked up Syria lately? Iraq? Russia? The Serbs in the Balkans?

Why this constant need to say 'Iran isn't that bad'?

Iran is indeed that bad.

Iran is very, very bad, and it's possible to both believe that and also believe the war is a massive error.

We don't need to defend Iran to criticize the prosecution of this war.

I can't explain it. It's a compulsion. Maybe I need help 😊

😂

I suppose the 11 medics blown up in Lebanon recently (despite being in Ambulances) and the 3 journalists are all flawed intel?

But this is always what pro Israeli posters do, justify the murder of innocent people as mistakes/stresses of war btw that was a common defence when the IDF gunned down their own people who had escaped Hamas.

When is it going to dawn on (some) people that Israel couldn't care less about the deaths of anyone at all, even their own people, they see it all as a price worth paying and as can be seen with the US, they play the same tune.

Whereas America and Israel are being completely legal and ethical in their attacks and have been from the start?

Come on OP

I would use a worse adjective than « bad »
to describe those who causing extensive suffering of other human beings, but I take on board your comments about the role Iran has played in prior conflicts in the region.

I was thinking about recent events in the last few years that have resulted in distress, suffering, pain, displacement and death- and I do think that there are other countries whose actions have been more devastating than even Iranian response to its own citizens’ uprising earlier this year which was brutal.