Let's face it Iran is indiscriminatly hitting Israeli civilians targets including schools using cluster bombs.....

[mids2019]

Iran is firing missiles into heavily populated Israeli towns and have abandoned the pretence of targeting anything military.....this is just pure terrorism and does make you think what would happen if Iran did manage to develop a nuclear weapon.

Just hoping more of the missile launch sites can be taken out and this terrorist regime falls.

This is how lines get crossed I suppose. I am seeking evidence for this statement that @SharonEllis made.

" Its the biggest sponsor of terrorism in the world and a threat to all of us."

For some reason the discussion has led to why groups are proscribed. So instead of going deeper into the rabbit hole of proscription, I think I will hang about on top and wait for evidence for what this whole digression started from.

The list is from the gov.uk - easy to find - surprised you didn't 'have it to hand' as you were outlining reasons for proscription.

https://homeofficemedia.blog.gov.uk/2023/09/15/factsheet-proscription/#:~:text=Home%20Office%20news%20team%2C%2015,What%20is%20the%20process?

Yes the difference in the government's reasons for proscription, and your interpretation of it, is quite subtle but also rather significant.

I think sometimes you’ve got to choose your battles and biggest v major for the IRGC, who we seem to have all agreed are a theocratic authoritarian brutal military force, is like shaping a press release for the wrong reason.

They don’t need the time on this.

And as you full well know, various governments & experts have said Iran is the biggest sponsor of terrorism at various times. They have been at it a long time. Nobody except you cares whether, at this moment, they are the biggest or the second biggest. It makes no material difference to anything because the actual reality of the threat is there, a real and present danger. As I said before another state being worse (if you can evidence it, go for it!) doesn't make Iran any less bad.

Personally I suspect Russia is the biggest sponsor of terrorism in the world.

And they are benefiting from the war.

Iran supplies Russia with military equipment in its war against Ukraine.

Russia are manufacturing drones to Iranian specifications now - and can ship them to Iran.

Trump has lowered sanctions - Russia & Belarus are beneficiaries of the war.

I know people have said it. Including you. But what I have not seen is any evidence to back it up, also including from you. And if there was evidence out there to support the statement, I am fairly certain you would have posted it. Especially if various governments have said it. Because they do usually publish.

Really, you should not be posting stuff in good faith if you have no evidence for it. And it does make a difference if a statement is true or not. Especially when it is being used to justify war. We are supposed to have learned that after the 2nd Gulf war. And no, it's not for me to disprove a claim I am not making. That's for the person making the claim.

Anyway, it does appear you are winding back a little.

Yup. Russia has set up factories to make Iranian designed Shahed drones apparently. And the number they are using against Ukraine appears to back this claim up.

900 russian Companies and $3B Fuel Shahed Drone Production | Defense Express (defence-ua.com)

Russia has a Caspian sea navy as well to ship them to Iran. So are the US about to start sinking Russian naval ships ? It certainly benefits Russia, and other nations too, if the US is using all its Patriot ammo on Russian made drones that Iran is launching.

It was you who bought it up. With this-
"HAMAS is proscribed in the UK for example. But so far as I am aware, it is not proscribed because it is blowing up UK train stations, it is proscribed as an act of Diplomatic solidarity with Israel."

Which, for me, is too silly to let go.

And I also not you've declined to answer whether or not you feel Iran is a major sponsor of international terrorism despite me asking that direct question more than once....

Of course you don't have to answer but I do find conversations flow better if we directly address each other's points.

( for example I've directly addressed your point- No I don't have evidence but I believe the experts in the field, and given my view as to whether or not the war is justified... perhaps you could do us the same in return? )

I think if posters want answers from @RedTagAlan they need to answer her question that was made first.

Anything else is simply sidelining the initial request.
Surely if a poster makes a blatant statement they know what they are talking about and have proof.? Don’t they??

Proof does seem to be a long time coming…

Doesn't my saying I don't have proof count?

You weren’t the poster that made the claim

True enough.

I'd still appreciate Alan finding the time to answer me directly if possible.

I said this:

"HAMAS is proscribed in the UK for example. But so far as I am aware, it is not proscribed because it is blowing up UK train stations, it is proscribed as an act of Diplomatic solidarity with Israel."

I was using that as an example. I recall to someone saying "major sponsor" because proscribed by X Y Z nations.. I used that as an example because I was fairly sure I could find the reason for proscription. And I could not recall from the news that it was proscribed in the UK NOT because of terror attacks in the UK. But it was done to support Isreal. And yes, I would say doing things to help another nation is diplomatic. You might not. I do.

As it turns out, HAMAS is not proscribed in the UK because of terror attacks in the UK. Here is the UK statement.

"Harakat al-Muqawamah al-Islamiyyah (Hamas) – Proscription extended November 2021
Hamas is a militant Islamist movement that was established in 1987, following the first Palestinian intifada. Its ideology is related to that of the Muslim Brotherhood combined with Palestinian nationalism. Its main aims are to liberate Palestine from Israeli occupation, the establishment of an Islamic state under Sharia law and the destruction of Israel (although Hamas no longer demands the destruction of Israel in its Covenant). The group operates in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Hamas formally established Hamas IDQ in 1992. Hamas IDQ was proscribed by the UK in March 2001. At the time it was HM government’s assessment that there was a sufficient distinction between the so called political and military wings of Hamas, such that they should be treated as different organisations, and that only the military wing was concerned in terrorism. The government now assess that the approach of distinguishing between the various parts of Hamas is artificial. Hamas is a complex but single terrorist organisation.
Hamas commits and participates in terrorism. Hamas has used indiscriminate rocket or mortar attacks, and raids against Israeli targets. During the May 2021 conflict, over 4,000 rockets were fired indiscriminately into Israel. Civilians, including 2 Israeli children, were killed as a result. Palestinian militant groups, including Hamas, frequently use incendiary balloons to launch attacks from Gaza into southern Israel. There was a spate of incendiary balloon attacks from Gaza during June and July 2021, causing fires in communities in southern Israel that resulted in serious damage to property.
Hamas also prepares for acts of terrorism. One incident of preparatory activity is that Hamas recently launched summer camps in Gaza which focus on training groups, including minors, to fight. This is evidence of Hamas being responsible for running terrorist training camps in the region. In a press statement, Hamas described the aim of these camps as to “ignite the embers of Jihad in the liberation generation, cultivate Islamic values and prepare the expected victory army to liberate Palestine”."
Source :

Proscribed terrorist groups or organisations - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Sorry for the wall of text.

Nothing in there about terror attacks in the UK.

So no, I do not think it was a silly post I made.

As for If I think Iran is a major sponsor of terror ? Against Isreal yes. Against the rest of the world no. As I said way up thread, it's main activities in the west appear to be against Iranian dissidents. Not blowing up train stations and the like, So not a threat to us all.

This bit here, where you say this : " No I don't have evidence but I believe the experts in the field,". In that case we do differ. I like experts in the field to prevent evidence.

Since when does a whole thread get held up till one poster is satisfied with another posters answer? I have addressed the point up thread i don't have access to detailed high level intelligence, other than the word of a few counter terrorism officers who don't share their actual sources with me. I pick up what is said/written in the public domain like anyone else. And just like everyone else, if I broadly trust the source I don't require a full dossier of evidence for every point I take on board (I mean Alan didnt even bother looking up the criteria for proscription which is open source). Nor do I keep a detailed record of the exact time I heard someone say something and what they said. And neither does anyone else.

It makes absolutely no difference whether at this precise moment Iran is THE biggest sponsor or terror, or 'merely' the second biggest, or even the third. Their role in terror in their own country and abroad, including in the UK is not in doubt and one has to wonder at the motivation for the hair splitting.

As for who Iran threatens in this country - of course Iranian dissident are a target. If they are resident here then I do consider that a threat to us all.

Perhaps Alan missed the two most recent cases to come to our attention - two men in court accused of surveilling a wide range of Jewish sites including not only synagogues but a large cultural centre. Perhaps lan doesn't consider the Jewish community to be part of 'us all' but I do.

The latest attack on Hatzolah ambulances has also been claimed by an Iranian group. Its not verified yet but there is widespread concern in the intelligence community about this.

And just because Alan doesn't have the sources, I do believe my sources when they tell me that Iranian plots do threaten us all.

The point of counter terrorism is to stop things happening, not wait for something to happen and then say, oh right, now I believe Iran is a threat.

But surely there is cause and effect here?

USA and Israel attacked Iran durning peace talks.

As a result of that - Iran fights back?

I mean - Hamas attacked Israel. As a result, Israel fought back.

Al Qaeda attacked USA, as a result the US fought back.

And so on.

All expanded beyond military targets.

Youve copied and pasted the same wall of text above twice. Its an outline of the reasons why Hamas have been proscribed, a list of their terrorist activities. Whether or not the acts were commited in the uk has no bearing on whether or not they are terrorists does it? Unless you see terrorist activities not in the UK as somehow not actually terrorist activities?
The uk has proscribed them as terrorists because they are terrorists.
Don't you believe they are terrorists? Or is it that you think despite the fact they are obviously terrorists, this wasn't the reason they were proscribed?

Thanks for noting you don't see Iran as a threat to us UK citizens but only a threat to their own citizens in the diaspora in the UK and Israel. I'm confused as to why you don't think attacks on Iranian diaspora in the UK are a threat to us, as of course we should care about those people as much as our own citizens and of course our own citizens will be caught in the crossfire.

I've added below the House of Commons report on the threat Iran poses to the UK. Perhaps you'd accept their word on it rather than mine.

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-10413/CBP-10413.pdf

Of course you may not feel this amounts to justification for war. But I think we're naive to deny the threat.

If Iran is the biggest sponsor of terrorism in the World (which they are not IMHO), then please show me evidence of actual terrorist attacks which Iran has carried out in the last 40 years, on mainland Europe, The UK, the far East, Australia and New Zealand, Canada, Russia or South America and the USA.
I am talking about actual attacks, because since 7/7/2005, there have been 17 deadly Islamic extremist attacks on the UK, by Sunni groups, linked to Islamic State, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram and other Sunni terrorist groups, which have absolutely no link to Iran. Those attacks resulted in 94 deaths and 1987 injuries.

I’m not getting into googling for you. I’m happy to leave it at major sponsors of terrorism or the biggest.

Since none of us on here can prove which one of those it is I’m happy to leave it as an and /or. Not even your words in the ( ) are proof.

Iran are major sponsors of terrorism and are a theocratic authoritarian brutal military force - it seems everyone agrees on that at least so instead of going round in circles on major or biggest the thread can move on.

Plus I’m not sure why you’ve quoted that post in particular as I don’t mind which version people use, biggest or major. They export terror either way.

Well 7 October was approx 1200 deaths so that's significantly more than your total of 94 deaths in just one attack.

I'm really struggling with people posting asking for proof of Iranian sponsorship of terrorism. Since they brutally murdered their lefty revolutionary partners in 1979, to the constant terror they inflict on their own citizens, through the sectarian unrest they forment throughout the region, to their open sponsorship of Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis and the destruction these groups have bought upon their own nations, I would have thought Iranian being a sponsor of international terror would have been one thing we all agree on.

Oh well. Such is mumsnet.

Actually - I care.

And I know a lot of people who care.

Countries are being bombed into the Middle Ages; men, women and children are being maimed, killed, and annihilated in our name and with our tax money, I definitely care.

And while we are focused on this argument on this thread, the decision makers are Donald Trump on one side and Netanyahu on the other, and definitely don't care.

They are not beacons of virtue acting with no self interest.

Anyone who does not pause, and ask for pause from the aggressors (US and Israel) to ask the hard questions is playing fast and lose with the lives of others.

It is rather convenient that every time we start blowing other people to smithereens, that particular group happens to be the most dangerous group in the world.

Yup. I copied a bit of a previous post because it appeared some had not seen it.

A reminder to the claim made:

" Its the biggest sponsor of terrorism in the world and a threat to all of us."

And at last someone has posted a document to address that claim. From page 2.

"In July 2025, Parliament’s Intelligence and Security Committee published a report on Iranian state threats to UK interests, based on evidence taken from 2021 to 2023. The committee said that Iran poses a “wide-ranging, persistent and unpredictable threat”, though one less developed and strategic than the threats posed by Russia and China. It also said that the greatest threat currently posed by Iran in the UK was the “physical threat posed to dissidents and other opponents”. Previously, this had been espionage (referring to attempts to access non-public information through covert means)."

So less than that from Russia and China, and mainly posed to dissidents and other opponents. I

To quote you :" I'm confused as to why you don't think attacks on Iranian diaspora in the UK are a threat to us, as of course we should care about those people as much as our own citizens and of course our own citizens will be caught in the crossfire."

I did state above that the threat to Iranian dissidents in the UK show just how important the UK (and western) asylum system is. And how I believe anyone seeking asylum from Iran should be supported to the max. And just to add to that, I certainly do not agree with protests against asylum "hotels". I suspect many people who are against asylum in the UK are also pro bombing Iran. Nobody in this thread of course. Also note the part in the disputed statement: "threat to all of us". Do I consider Iranians on asylum as "us" ? Yup.

Cross fire is a risk yes. Salisbury comes to mind. Unless you are suggesting Iran will bomb a whole school to get one dissident, or child of a dissident. British Jews need extra protection too. But as a PP pointed out, that appears to be Sunni who are the biggest threat. I will add far right too.

Is this evidence to base a war on ? Nope. Not in my opinion. Or are you suggesting the US should have done Russia and China first ? (Rhetorical)

The point about Iran is state-sponsored terror. Boko Haram, for example is not a state.

It seems an easy point to understand that @RedTagAlan is making ?

The UK is under no direct threat from Hamas on the ground in the UK.

Israel is under huge direct threat from Hamas on the ground.

In recognition of that, and in an act of solidarity with Israel, the UK proscribed Hamas.

I mean, the argument is clear and well laid out, many times over.