I need to say this out loud

[simplesimoneatspie]

As a British citizen I am disgusted in the utter cowardice of my own government at the moment. If you are an American citizen please believe that there are people in the UK who have no respect for the way we are distancing ourselves from what is happening in the Middle East.
Your government has backbone and courage and wants to do the right thing for all our children’s futures.
I applaud Trump for standing up for his country, military, citizens of Iran…the world, and he doesn't care who he might offend in doing so.
It’s such a pity the same can’t be said for our ‘leader’. I am actually ashamed of my country at this moment in time. I truly hope this changes over the coming days/weeks.

You’re probably right. Like the thousands of
comments on social media pushing the narrative that Iran bombed its own schoolgirls. Or that it’s absolutely fine and normal to sink a shipful of men in international waters and not rescue survivors. Surely this is not how real people
think?

We still don't know if the school being bombed was caused by the US/Israel or Iran though it seems pretty obvious to "real people" to use your phrase that it would have been an accident whoever caused it.

The balance of probability suggests it was caused by the US I believe, though you can't stop people wildly speculating on social media.

I don't use much social media because it's a cesspit as far as I can see in my limited experience of it. If it's upsetting you then maybe you should limit your exposure to it too.

I don’t think that this war is being pursued because we care about Iranians and their freedom. I have to admit I’ve watched people close to me grieve their loved ones in Myanmar for years as the military bombed villages, and they wonder why can’t the US help? It’s noble to talk about saving Iran but let’s be honest. This isn’t about liberation. And in this world full of state inflicted horror, how do we pick who deserves saving?

From Hegseth’s map it seems fairly conclusive that the US was responsible but they’re “looking into it “

I don't know who you mean by "we"? Lots of people do care about Iranians and their freedom.

I wouldn't say it was the highest priority of Trump or Netanyahu, not at all. But the uprising of the Iranian people and the harsh response by the Iranian regime did facilitate the war.

Iran developing nuclear capabilities is probably the biggest reason for the war, in my opinion. They can't be allowed to develop one while the regime is committed to destroying Israel and they hate the US too.

It’s not that it’s upsetting me, and I’m not a heavy user. But unfortunately it also
shapes public opinion and disinformation is a powerful tool. We have a heavy legacy in this world and at school we didn’t necessarily learn the full picture. We get to sit and chat about wars while the vast majority of us don’t have to truly face the brutal reality. War is always a failure. It should be the absolute last resort.

War is always a failure. It should be the absolute last resort.
I completely agree.

I don’t agree with nuclear proliferation but I do think it’s a double standard that Iran cannot have them (though according to the IAEA, currently they don’t). Which countries have them openly? Which countries refuse to sign the non-proliferation treaty? Which countries have attacked other countries in our lifetimes? Which countries have fabricated reasons to go to war with others, citing weapons of mass destruction? Has it helped? Which countries have actually used nuclear weapons and what justification was I given for this in my history lessons? Do I really “know” the truth about the situation or are we operating out of received ideas?

I think it is wise not to rush in. I think that I
don’t have the full picture and anyone that says they do is making a mistake. But what I do feel sure of is that we have been lied to over and over throughout our lives and comforted with the notion that we are the good guys. Standing outside of it all, it’s hard to maintain that illusion.

I think it’s a pathetic argument that to be fair Iran should be allowed to develop nuclear weapons, because other countries have them.

Should we allow Iran to wipe Israel off the face of the earth because of concerns about double standards? They are committed to destroying Israel aren’t they?

Totally agree. The difference is the ideology. Russia, the US and others have nuclear weapons but they arent hell bent on wiping other countries and populations out.

Jihadis, Islamic state, hamas, all extremists could not care less about their lives or their own civilians. We've seen it again and again with suicide bombers and using their own to hide behind. They don't care, they think they're all getting 72 virgins in paradise.

Let that ideology have access to nuclear weapons and it really will be the end.

You’re entitled to that opinion, but take the time to consider my other questions otherwise it’s a half-debate. This is a deeper question than can be summarised in “oh you don’t want x, so does that mean you support why?”

I’m against nuclear weapons. I don’t think anyone should have them. I certainly don’t think we should be taking violent action against a country that says it “might”
wipe Israel off the face of the earth while Israel “is” wiping Palestine of the face of the earth, and we not only do nothing but also help (cf spy flights). And assuming that we take at face value the notion that Iran seriously intends to wipe Israel off the face of the earth - what would be the best course of action? To kill 1300 and counting, indiscriminately?

You seem able effortlessly to put yourself in the shoes of Israel and empathise with them
and justify their actions. That’s exactly the worldview I grew up with, and that remained unshaken until I moved to
France, studied the holocaust until I was numb, but then one day I encountered a Scottish woman on a boat who challenged me … and I just wrote her off in my head as an anti-semite. But again, I only had part of the picture. It’s taken most of my life to question myself. Everybody around me thought the same, anyway.

Funnily enough my parents’ attic is full of old books and maps and those maps have Palestine on them. Palestine had the right to exist too. We cannot right historical wrongs through more violence; and we cannot view events in a vacuum. And black and white thinking isn’t going to work. It’s impossible to attain peace through violence and passive silence.

Again you are entitled to your beliefs
and I see why you think that way. I used to also feel that way (the whole “necessary evil”). But from where I sit, today, I run through the entire history of interventionist foreign policy, Guatemala, Chile, School of the Americas, all the secret wars (Laos? Cambodia?), Hiroshima, Nagasaki… and I don’t have much doubt that these are not the actions of a benevolent global “police force”, but in fact actions motivated by self-serving interests, and we have been either silent bystanders or complicit in much of it. And I don’t want any part in it.

This is a very interesting read

Why Israel (Sort of) Misses the Iran Deal | The Washington Institute https://share.google/fgO3PGUMix5VY63N9

But Iran has said that anything used by other countries as in bases will be regarded as being complicit with the aggressors so fair game. So bases used in defence are fair game to them.

On this conflict the most important voices that I listen to are Iranians.

I wonder where you get your pure unbiased news?

What does that even mean? How would we have stopped the nazis, without a war? Do you expect Ukraine to just roll over? I mean it's bs.

I'm so saddened by the school tragedy but why was a girls school ever so near to military targets ?

Do we have girls schools near to military targets ?

In what sense do you have a part in it?

I listen to Iranians too. They are not a homogeneous society but they do listen to each other

You have no idea how it will affect Iranians in general. Perhaps you only listen to one particular group?

This war will only create division, but then that is the point.

Agree, none of what I'm seeing or hearing from the US or Israel seen to have the Iranian people at the forefront of what they're doing or trying to achieve. It's a ploy to get buy in. But none of the experts I'm listening to who have understanding of the situation or what is needed for regime change are encouraged or hopeful about what is playing out. I hope I'm wrong but fear I'm not.

I listen to Iranians mainly, many of who have family and friends still in Iran, and are well educated on the Iranian situation having grown up in Iran, with most of them leaving the country within the last 5 years or so. I don't think my Iranian friends represent the views of the entire country but I think they have a way better view of the realities of the situation than I do from reading any media.

No. It’s a complete coincidence that whenever the US want to give country their ‘freedom’ that there’s also oil there.

Hear, hear

because iran, easier russia not easy

I hope Starmer stays strong and shows backbone now like the Spanish PM. If we start showing disregard for international law and morality built over decades, then who do we become?

First, there is no such thing as pure unbiased news. But there is such a thing as manufactured consent. Disinformation, propaganda. One day in Bangkok we woke up to find ourselves in the middle of a war zone. I can tell you there are many, many perspectives on what actually happened. There’s what we saw, what we think we saw, the things people “know” because they saw it on the “news”. What was written in English/what was written in Thai. The background. The dozens of conversations I had with Thais on all sides of the divide, the books, the censorship, the dissidents, the confusion. People used to ask me to summarise. I completely understand the impossibility of understanding a situation based on “the news” or “my friends”. I have close friends from various parts of Ukraine and their opinions diverge greatly and often within families. No country is a monolithic bloc where the people share one sole opinion. We would be arrogant to think we know. I don’t think I “know”. But we are allowed to be opposed to illegal wars without “knowing”. We are allowed to be pacifists. This war is illegal. By saying I want no part of it, I mean I do not want our government, our army to participate. I don’t want public money to be spent on weapons. Don’t want to sell weapons and make a fortune on it like we made a fortune from slavery and colonialism. We haven’t sent military assistance to Burma, despite the brutal repression of its people. Not to Sudan either. Iranian lives matter, unquestionably, and I grieve for them. Why does Burma get a pass? Bombing their own villagers with warplanes!

If you look at the entirety of our foreign policy, and US foreign policy, and you don’t spot an emerging pattern, then that is fine. You’ve just come to a different conclusion to me.

We are all going to make our decisions based on our life experiences, our beliefs, and the people in our lives. It’s not going to align all the time. But I think it’s okay, and vital, to share our beliefs and differing opinions, with kindness and respect. Maybe we will change minds, maybe ours will be changed. But the cries of “it’s political”, “don’t talk about religion and politics” I was raised with just mean that many of us stay silent when our gut tells us this is wrong. It means the status quo will never change. It means those that can afford to own a newspaper or a news channel or a social media platform will be able to control the narrative, and it means that unless we listen to those without a platform, they will continue to have no voice.

I don’t believe that it is the right decision to bomb Iran. I think it’s illegal and it’s wrong. We’ve done enough to the rest of the world.

I want no part means that we are responsible as a people for the actions of our leaders. So if it’s our schools, and our warships, and our kids, we will also be responsible.