Jewish and very conflicted re Israel, thoughts please?

[Newbutoldfather]

Please bear with me as I suspect this will be quite long and my own thoughts aren’t really as clear as they should be, but I am curious about your thoughts on this.

I am early 60s, grew up in North London as a secular Jew. Like most Jews I was brought up with stories of the Holocaust and how Israel was founded as a safe haven for U.S. Jews.

I visited there only once as a young adult and toured Jerusalem, Haifa, Tel Aviv, Dead Sea, Masada etc. I was welcomed by all and had an amazing time.

And Israel was a plucky little liberal democracy in a see of enemies, whom they vanquished against the odds.

But, over time, the demographics and politics have changed. There is no question that elements of the government are profoundly racist. This is something I could not imagine when I was young. Add to that a growing muscularity, backed by Trump, and Israel is now a regional superpower (complete with a large nuclear deterrent). I think this confers upon it some responsibility.

There is little question that Israel has committed war crimes, although I don’t believe it has committed genocide. It has also run a torture prison (Sde Teiman), something that is an anathema to most liberal Jews. And the aggressive settlers in the West Bank, given a nod and a wink by Ben G’vir are behaving appallingly.

Zionism is a much used word and, sadly, many don’t agree on its meaning. I am 100% a Zionist in believing in Israel’s right to a peaceful existence and in it defending itself. I am not when I am demanded to back Netanyahu and his cronies.

So, here is the problem. How much of the increasing violence amongst the diaspora should Israel take responsibility for, if any?

Nothing excuses antisemitism, but I can see it being amplified by increasingly aggressive social media posts on both sides is just polarising the issue. Israel may (or may not) have been justified for taking some of its more aggressive actions in Gaza but, regardless, fire emojis by Israeli flags when a hospital has just been destroyed, complete with all the patients, is going to get a reaction!

So, in my opinion, just as the Versailles treaty in no way justified Nazism, Israel in no way justifies antisemitism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t explain the conditions necessary for it to flourish, or not understanding that humiliating the losers of a war creates conditions under which extremism can flourish.

So, if you are Jewish, how much of your backing of Israel is conditional upon its actions, if any?

(all welcome to comment , Jewish or otherwise).

*Us Jews, not U.S Jews

I am a secular Jew in the US and I don’t back Israel at all—and I have relatives there. I can’t support an apartheid style state and I won’t support what they are doing in Gaza. I just won’t. And three generations of my family have felt the same. Its sad. But I can not condone it and won’t.

Oh lovely. This is a very brave post and you have all my backing and respect for posting it.
I was going to write my opinion - but then I remembered all the other threads and got too scared too. Which just shows what we are living in.

Being Jewish is not the same as being pro Israeli. Being Palestinian is not the same as being Hamas.
People forget this. The same as they forget - what other countries benefit from instability in the middle east? There's alot of hornet nest stirring of guillable people who don't think critically.

Hear, hear.

Hamas attacked Israel oct 7
Israel has the right to do anything it has to to eradicate Hamas terrorists
What do people expect them to do - invite them in for coffee and a bun

Pro Israeli government you mean?

A very considered post. I do have to disagree (politely) with you about it not being genocide however, after reading this

Israel has committed genocide in the Gaza Strip, UN Commission finds | OHCHR

The settlers are certainly not helping matters as you say.

I do not support Israel, neither do I support Hamas but I do feel for all the people caught up in the middle of this and what happened in Bondi and what is happening all over the world with the rise of anti semitism is frightening, not that it effects me personally.

WRT social media and the amplification, show me any issue for which this is not true!

I don't think anyone should be supporting this Israeli government and the more Jewish people who come out and say this and call them out for their crimes/genocide the better, frankly

Hamas terrorists, yes. Civilians, no.

I'm not Jewish.

I understand your dilemma - have always supported Palestinians over the decades as they've been treated very badly by Israel, and the rest of the world, including their fellow Arabs.

But I hate Islamic fundamentalism and dislike seeing Palestinian women in Gaza head to toe in 'modest' garb - you don't see any women or older girls showing their hair. Since when was this the norm - not back in the day of Yasser Arafat who seems quite the moderate now in comparison to Hamas.

Hamas have been disastrous for the Palestinians and knocked into oblivion the chances of an independent state.

Retaliation for 7 October is one thing but, in the words of Miriam Margolyes,
it's about the children and the numbers. How much suffering can you inflict on the civilian population before it becomes genocide? Tens of thousands so far.

Many of us, Jewish or not, are conflicted.

No state has the right to do that under international law, which Israel signed up to. It has the right to a proportionate response against non-civilian targets.

Civilians in Gaza were happy to join in and many celebrated the attack on Israel.

You have asked a specific question:
How much of the increasing violence in the diaspora should Israel take responsibility for?
What you're getting here, instead, are some well used arguments on the whole Israel issue.
I would say to answer your question - none.
A 10 year old Jewish girl on a beach in Australia has had no part in this, and anyone who imagines that somehow Jews can collectively take responsibility for the Jewish state would not apply those standards to any other group.

Black people committing crimes are not responsible for anti- black racism.
Average normal Muslims are not responsible for Islamists.
No Pakistani on the streets of Lahore is responsible for the Bondi shooters.
Chinese immigrants here are not responsible for the Uyghur genocide taking place in western China now.
I am not responsible for the sexed up dossier and Blairs decision to go to war in Iraq.

These statements are all obvious to us. The responsibility for Israels actions lies with those taking the decisions and carrying out the actions, not people unconnected but who share the same ethnicity.

We can criticise specific actions and specific people of any government or any individual, Jewish/ Israeli or otherwise. Its hard to figure out what is fair criticism and what has segued into hatred of people of that ethnicity but who are unconnected- but thats what we have to do.

Holding someone unconnected to a specific action responsible for it because they share an ethnicity, or any kind of dislike for any person because of something someone of their nation did is racism.

Anyone holding any Jew or Israeli anywhere unconnected to the BN administration responsible for the situation in Gaza is a racist.

All of them? Come on. Children, babies? Enough of the hyperbole.

Thank you, @dairydebris . A good summary.

Hamas's objective on 7 October 2023 was never the liberation of
Gaza or the creation of a Palestinian state. It was exactly this. Exactly your response, and many similar ones: to reduce Israel's standing in the West, to spread hatred of Israel and of Jews. They knew exactly how Netanyahu's government would respond. They sacrificed their own children to this aim. And Netanyahu walked right into their trap. Charged into it.

Could he have done any different? Absolutely he had to attack. Hard. Cutting supplies of energy and water to Gaza? Yes, absolutely. When Israel withdrew from Gaza they left the infrastructure there. Before this conflict Gaza had a flourishing middle class and a university that attracted Arab students from across the Arab world. Gaza had the opportunity to develop. Gaza received more aid per capita from the UN than any other country worldwide. But Hamas policy was to divert aid to war. To use water pipes to make pipe bombs. To increase reliance on refugee camps. Israel was not responsible for Hamas's choices. What other nation is expected to keep supplying their attackers with water and electricity?

OTOH, keeping international aid out of Gaza, and keeping international observers away from the conflict? I think that was a massive error of judgement, both humanitarian and political.

Hamas committed 1139 murders in their pogrom on 7 October

Israeli citizens = ~ 9.8m

ie ~0.012% of the population murdered in one day

Add the 251 hostages brings it to ~0.016% of the population murdered or taken hostage in one day.

Now apply those percentages to the UK population:

0.016% of 68million = 10,628

Hamas’ pogrom in Israel was the equivalent of over 10,000 UK citizens being brutally murdered or taken hostage in one day.

Last Night of the Proms: 6,000 people
Luton’s Kenilworth Rd stadium: 10,300 capacity
No 1 court Wimbledon 12,345 capacity

Imagine one of these events being attacked, and everyone present being brutally murdered or taken hostage. And the venue burnt down.

Here’s what 1000 people looks like, and what 10,000 people looks like.

How do you think the UK government would have responded, had terrorists attacked Kenilworth Road Stadium, brutally murdered almost everybody present, raping and burning people, and taking several hundred hostage? Do you think our government, any government, would have reacted mildly? Do you think our citizens would have reacted mildly to compatriots of the perpetrators residing among us?

I disagree with much that Netanyahu and his right wing ideologues do. But I also believe that Israel is held up to double standards by people who cannot imagine anything like this happening in our lovely, safe, Western countries. And after Manchester and Bondi, people need to think again.

I don’t know how manyjoined in as I only saw TV footage of families handing out sweets to children and other civilians dancing and cheering. This doesn’t mean that I support everything the Israeli government have done in Gaza or the West Bank. Unfortunately, in this war it’s been the ordinary civilians who have suffered at the hands of extremists on both sides.

The war doesn’t excuse the vile antisemitism that has become so apparent since October 7th.

Collective punishment of a people is a war crime

Well said

Nothing Israel does justifies antisemitism because no-one in the world is responsible for the actions of Israel just in virtue of being Jewish.

Israel's appalling behaviour in Gaza is in some ways similar to the American abuse of the 9/11 atrocity, which they (and the UK) used as part of the pretext for the invasion of Iraq.
All those who opposed that invasion were justified in attributing blame towards the US and the UK, and (to an extent) their electorates. But it would never have been right for opponents of that invasion to attribute blame to any individual, anywhere in the world, just on the grounds that they happened to shared a faith or an ethnicity with the average member of the US or UK electorates. And yet that is what is happening now - Jews around the world facing increased hostility because of Israel's actions.

I hate it that there are people in the world who use Israel's behaviour as an excuse for their antisemitism. I also hate it when people make the reverse move - i.e. trying to wrongfoot legitimate criticism of Israel's war by calling it antisemitic. Taken together, those two types of dishonesty create a kind of pincer movement, cornering Jews all over the world into somehow having to symbolically represent Israel's aggression. When of course the reality is that Jews, just like anyone else, have a range of views relating to Israel.
It is a horrible, horrible position to be in.

Lots of love and support to the Jewish people on this thread, who must be feeling particularly horrified and vulnerable this week.

This. Jewish people are not collectively responsible just as Muslims are not collectively responsible for 9/11.

Hear, hear.

If that many people were murdered in the UK, the UK government would react disasterously. Just as the US reacted disasterously after 9/11. Just as Israel has reacted disasterously.

All it does is kill huge numbers of innocent civilians, and ultimately increase the problem of terrorism by creating more recruits.

My family were severely impacted by WW2, they suffered serious privations and were bombed out of their home. Several were killed or wounded in combat.
Not one of my family became terrorists. That is an extreme choice and not an acceptable outcome of any war.