Jewish and very conflicted re Israel, thoughts please?

[Newbutoldfather]

Please bear with me as I suspect this will be quite long and my own thoughts aren’t really as clear as they should be, but I am curious about your thoughts on this.

I am early 60s, grew up in North London as a secular Jew. Like most Jews I was brought up with stories of the Holocaust and how Israel was founded as a safe haven for U.S. Jews.

I visited there only once as a young adult and toured Jerusalem, Haifa, Tel Aviv, Dead Sea, Masada etc. I was welcomed by all and had an amazing time.

And Israel was a plucky little liberal democracy in a see of enemies, whom they vanquished against the odds.

But, over time, the demographics and politics have changed. There is no question that elements of the government are profoundly racist. This is something I could not imagine when I was young. Add to that a growing muscularity, backed by Trump, and Israel is now a regional superpower (complete with a large nuclear deterrent). I think this confers upon it some responsibility.

There is little question that Israel has committed war crimes, although I don’t believe it has committed genocide. It has also run a torture prison (Sde Teiman), something that is an anathema to most liberal Jews. And the aggressive settlers in the West Bank, given a nod and a wink by Ben G’vir are behaving appallingly.

Zionism is a much used word and, sadly, many don’t agree on its meaning. I am 100% a Zionist in believing in Israel’s right to a peaceful existence and in it defending itself. I am not when I am demanded to back Netanyahu and his cronies.

So, here is the problem. How much of the increasing violence amongst the diaspora should Israel take responsibility for, if any?

Nothing excuses antisemitism, but I can see it being amplified by increasingly aggressive social media posts on both sides is just polarising the issue. Israel may (or may not) have been justified for taking some of its more aggressive actions in Gaza but, regardless, fire emojis by Israeli flags when a hospital has just been destroyed, complete with all the patients, is going to get a reaction!

So, in my opinion, just as the Versailles treaty in no way justified Nazism, Israel in no way justifies antisemitism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t explain the conditions necessary for it to flourish, or not understanding that humiliating the losers of a war creates conditions under which extremism can flourish.

So, if you are Jewish, how much of your backing of Israel is conditional upon its actions, if any?

(all welcome to comment , Jewish or otherwise).

Perhaps you need to go and read up a bit more on Christianity? You're not exactly demonstrating Christian values here.

One of the real problems with Israel is the depressing fact that a significant proportion of Israelis still believe in what Netanyahu is doing.

The more educated, highly skilled, generally more liberal Israelis are emigrating to Europe and the US, faster than people coming into the country. Who they are being replaced with are more nationalistic, low income, less well educated people, who are not averse to right wing popularism.

Israel is a democracy so just like the American people are partially responsible for Trump, Israelis are partially responsible for Netanyahu. At least those who voted for him.

And I rant about America all the time. I just ranted about Kenya and Saudi. I hold Israel to a high standard, yes. The reason might actually be the opposite of antisemitism. Educated, resourced democracies should behave better than poor oligarchies, monarchies or dictatorships. Shouldn't they?

Sadly, the majority were murdered.
However, I do know what you mean, although those doors were not open to them, especially the UK and USA, unless they had significant means.
Even the children on the Kinder Transport to the UK had to be sponsored by Jewish citizens.
No country just accepted penniless refugees.
Therein lies a problem.

So you would excuse the men of Afghanistan in a way that you wouldn't excuse the men of Israel?

But I see Israel as part of the history of Jewish people, which I find remarkable, fascinating and unique. ( other histories are also unique too 😊 ) And in that context it makes more sense.

I can also accept many nations have had terrible leadership at some point in their histories and Israel is no different.

I've never met a settler but I'm pretty sure they're of the same breed as the racial zealots of every nation?

Problems come when the extremists get into power, I hope Israel can sort that out for herself next year? 🙏

I am a secular American Jew who has lived in the UK almost 30 years. I am disgusted by the Israeli government tbh and Israeli foreign policy could not be less representative of my views. Their reaction to the horrific atrocity on 7/10 is making the world a more dangerous place and creating more antisemitism. The numbers above speak for themselves

I think people do typically have much higher expectations of modern democratic countries which have traditionally been considered to be our allies than they would of countries like Afghanistan, Iran or North Korea etc.

I think that's why people are so horrified by Trump in America. We expect so much more from a country that we have historically regarded as the "leader of the free world".

Israel has historically been viewed as a democracy and as an ally. So we typically expect it to adhere to certain standards that we wouldn't necessarily apply to countries that we know are very far removed from our values.

Yes, I think you're right and it's a fair point. However, I don't think it's fair to accept lack of civil and human rights in any regime. I'm sure we're all horrified by events in Sudan, for example.
I do wonder how the "Queers for Palestine" imagine how they'd get on in that area's particular regime.

No, I completely agree with you that we shouldn't just accept human rights abuses anywhere. I just think we are less shocked by such abuses when they happen in some countries than we are when they happen in countries which we perceive - rightly or wrongly - to be more similar to our own.

I think we must forget that one reason for the timing of October 7 was surely the Abraham Accords and Israel forging closer relations with Muslim nations - something that the likes of Iran and its proxies certainly don’t want happening. Bit like Ukraine slowest inching their way towards EU membership, which Putin doesn’t want.

I also agree that religious zealots of any creed are a menace. I think it’s awful that these zealots in Israel get to be exempt from national service.

However - most Jews around the world aren’t religious zealots. Which makes them even less responsible! Even if they were responsible in the first place - which they aren’t!!

Great post.

i think Netanyahu and his ilk are playing a dangerous game in the way that they try to link criticisms of their military actions with antisemitism .

Look at Netanyahu linking Australia’s Recognition of a Palestinian state with the terrorist attack.

Look at people on this thread linking criticism of the Israeli state with terrorist attacks.

When you start to dismiss voices who are speaking about peace and unity as being “racist” and conflating them with terrorism, you are alienating those who should be allies against anti semitism.

I don't get this.

Why do we expect Israeli / American / European leaders to behave better than NK, Iran or Afghanistan? They are humans, same as all of us. I think we should have the same expectations of all leadership- all people deserve to be treated well surely?

Why expect more of Netanyahu than Kim Jong? Surely both NKorean and Israeli citizens are equally deserving of their human rights?

I do think it's problematic to hold any nation to higher standards than any others. It's either reverse racism ( of low expectations ) or straight up unfair judgements depending on how you look at it.

Regarding the “being held to a higher standard” - I don’t want to pretend none of this is driven by, connected to or fuelling antisemitism. But I think partly the higher standard issue is quite the opposite of antisemitism - that non-Jews in western liberal democracies feel a kinship with both Jews and with Israel that means Israel IS held to a higher standards - a belief in Western superiority which is contrasted with an “othering” of other states and people in the region who are dismissed as not capable of meeting those standards.

Again not saying this is necessarily right or without consequence, and certainly not the only explanation for the amount of criticism levelled at Israel.

No. I dont think they should. I think all humans have exactly the same human rights. I dont think someone living under a democracy deserves better than someone living under a dictatorship.

I don't think Israel should be held to a higher standard than any other nation on earth. Its made of the same humans.

I think holding Israel to a higher standard than other nations is part of the problem.

Yes, you're right. The agreement with Egypt in particular.

Because they don’t claim to be democracies. Though Israel is, I believe, currently classed as a flawed democracy. But the only democracy in the Middle East and North Africa, which is home to most of the authoritarian regimes in the world I think.

My heart goes out to you @Newbutoldfather I have Jewish friends and friends and acquaintances who have a Jewish ancestry, whilst not being Jewish themselves. I also know people who have for many years preceding this present crisis, stood with Palestinians as they went daily back-and-forth between Palestine and Israel in order to work and who have silently and peacefully witnessed devastation to the family homes of Palestinians.

My impression has always been that there is a tiny minority of Jews living in Israel who were born outside Israel and who are consumed by an aggression and hostility towards Palestinians that is breathtaking. Having said that, I fully understand that where you have people who are debating and denying your own country’s right to exist, that is going to make you sensitive, possibly overreactive and understandably alert to aggressive and destructive actions towards you.

I have also listened to explanations that there is an evangelical section of American Christianity that goads Israel into aggression, under the guise of support, for some complicated theological reason linked to the second coming of Christ. I can’t hold all the details in my head but it sounds bonkers to me- the problem is that however bonkers it is it is a very forceful and militant section of American politics.

It has for some time been my great fear that the actions of the current Israeli government are provoking a hostile reaction that allows antisemitism a cover whilst appearing to be a support for Palestinians. This isn’t just a feature of that part of the world, it’s a long-standing tactic worldwide.

So my conclusion is that one has to identify harmful behaviour wherever it is and refrain from the temptation of linking it with a cause, a nationality, a race or a political party. There is no one religion, nationality, race, or political party that is wholly good, whilst there are many that a pretty bad.

This is easier said than done, particularly in a climate where people easily talk about e.g. “the left“ or “the right“ identifying them as acting in this or that particular manner. That appears to me to havestarted in America but it has moved over to the UK.

I suppose what I’m saying is that tribalism and allegiances can lead one astray.

That probably doesn’t help in the slightest, but I wanted to support you in some small way, as I’m also wishing to support the Muslim community in my country.

You may be right that it is a kind of reverse racism. Of course we should have the same high expectations of people everywhere. But in reality, I don't think we do judge everyone by the same standards.

I wonder if the double standards may be necessary to some extent in order to enable us to hold our own governments to account? I mean, if we were constantly comparing Keir Starmer's government to Kim Jong Un or the Taliban, then he'd probably look like a magnificent leader because we would be measuring him against a very low bar.

Agree, I think, particularly with the othering of other states in the region- who are somehow not expected to meet the same standards... actually I can't understand how it can be anything other than racism in one direction or the other.

@HoppityBun similar to your point, it has to be said that a sizable number of their neighbours want Israel to cease to exist. I would certainly call that hostile behaviour.

Mmm interesting point yes, about the Magnificence of Kier 😊.

Also maybe just familiarity with atrocities happening elsewhere... its nothing new so we are not shocked?

But we should be I think. We should aspire to the same standards for everyone. And I do think people bat this one away without thinking when they say- of course we hold Israel to a higher standard as its a democracy... I strongly disagree. Expectations should be the same.

I don't think it's necessarily a reflection of whether people believe that people in some countries aren't capable of meeting the same standards. More just a recognition of where individual countries actually are.

So, if the Taliban suddenly decided to allow women and girls to access education again, I think most of us would see that as a very positive development, whereas no government in Europe is going to be lauded for allowing girls to go to school because that is already the status quo.

Yes, although I think the problem with the Taliban, the Muslim Brotherhood, and of course Hamas is that their aim is to establish a Caliphate. I don't think there's any way to progress with this kind of fascist, theocratic, misogynist, homophobic, antisemitic world view.