Jewish and very conflicted re Israel, thoughts please?

[Newbutoldfather]

Please bear with me as I suspect this will be quite long and my own thoughts aren’t really as clear as they should be, but I am curious about your thoughts on this.

I am early 60s, grew up in North London as a secular Jew. Like most Jews I was brought up with stories of the Holocaust and how Israel was founded as a safe haven for U.S. Jews.

I visited there only once as a young adult and toured Jerusalem, Haifa, Tel Aviv, Dead Sea, Masada etc. I was welcomed by all and had an amazing time.

And Israel was a plucky little liberal democracy in a see of enemies, whom they vanquished against the odds.

But, over time, the demographics and politics have changed. There is no question that elements of the government are profoundly racist. This is something I could not imagine when I was young. Add to that a growing muscularity, backed by Trump, and Israel is now a regional superpower (complete with a large nuclear deterrent). I think this confers upon it some responsibility.

There is little question that Israel has committed war crimes, although I don’t believe it has committed genocide. It has also run a torture prison (Sde Teiman), something that is an anathema to most liberal Jews. And the aggressive settlers in the West Bank, given a nod and a wink by Ben G’vir are behaving appallingly.

Zionism is a much used word and, sadly, many don’t agree on its meaning. I am 100% a Zionist in believing in Israel’s right to a peaceful existence and in it defending itself. I am not when I am demanded to back Netanyahu and his cronies.

So, here is the problem. How much of the increasing violence amongst the diaspora should Israel take responsibility for, if any?

Nothing excuses antisemitism, but I can see it being amplified by increasingly aggressive social media posts on both sides is just polarising the issue. Israel may (or may not) have been justified for taking some of its more aggressive actions in Gaza but, regardless, fire emojis by Israeli flags when a hospital has just been destroyed, complete with all the patients, is going to get a reaction!

So, in my opinion, just as the Versailles treaty in no way justified Nazism, Israel in no way justifies antisemitism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t explain the conditions necessary for it to flourish, or not understanding that humiliating the losers of a war creates conditions under which extremism can flourish.

So, if you are Jewish, how much of your backing of Israel is conditional upon its actions, if any?

(all welcome to comment , Jewish or otherwise).

Proof?

I think Israel is a very unique country when it comes to this subject, and that makes it somewhat difficult to discuss by comparison to other situations and states.

Firstly, to put my cards on the table: I do not think Israel is responsible for antisemitism, I am by strict definition a Zionist (I believe the state of Israel has as much right to its continued existence as any other country), and I am also broadly pro-Palestine. I have a strong interest in philosophy and religion but I myself am an atheist, raised atheist, within the Christian-influenced culture of Britain.

All of that said, I think the relationship between Israel as a state and the broader identity of the Jewish religion have become intertwined in a way that can make it difficult to identify the line between criticism of the state of Israel and straight up antisemitism. While other countries are religious, Israel's unique position as the only Israeli state leads to an assumption that Israel is representative of the broader Jewish diaspora. I don't believe either Israeli as a state or critics of Israel have done nearly enough to clarify that distinction, one example I see is that Israeli flags are viewed by many as a Jewish symbol as opposed to a national one. I also think it's mostly on the critics of Israel, myself included, to ensure that we do not let our rhetoric cross that line, and that we specify as often as possible that Jewish people are not responsible for the actions of a government and nor should they ever be.

I think the decoupling of these two concepts, the diverse worldwide Jewish population and the state of Israel, is going to be key when it comes to tackling antisemitism. Depoliticising religion and ethnicity, I suppose, as while both religion and ethnicity may inform one's politics I don't believe anyone should be politicised because of either trait. One of the first steps, I believe, is speaking up against the idea that every Jewish person needs to have a clear-cut, well-informed and outspoken opinion on the conflict. Just as it would be wrong to ask any Muslim their stance on, say, the government of Iraq and assume they have a vehement stance ready to share with a stranger on a country they may have no personal connection to, it should be just as wrong to ask or assume the same of any Jewish person in regards to Israel.

God, I hope that makes sense; it feels like a massive ramble but I tried my best to explain myself! I'm looking forward to reading other viewpoints to further challenge, develop and inform my own.

I suppose that you could argue that the Islamist leaders in the horror regimes of Afghanistan etc bring Islam into disrepute.
It would certainly be wrong to target Muslims celebrating Eid in Bradford because of this.

@dairydebris ,

‘Latest polls show approx 50% of Gazans support Hamas' 7 October attack.’

I read that it was 70%, but they are a brainwashed and traumatised population, with a median age of 19 (!!). Most of them have only ever known Hamas, despite not voting for them.

But the defence of many of my Jewish friends that civilians are fair game because they support Hamas is exactly the same argument that we Jews are fair game for supporting Israel. Neither are true.

And I think I have tried to be clear but I will try to be even clearer. Racism is always evil. There are no excuses for it. But there are conditions which amplify existing prejudices and conditions that diminish it. The way Israel has ‘fought’ in Gaza (plus social media algorithms) have amplified it.

Can we say BN disgraces Judaism in the same for example Hamas disgraces Islam?

Thus we may not hold Muslims accountable for Hamas, and we may not hold people who follow Judaism for BN?

Can't we just criticize the specific person group or action rather than the whole nation / ethnicity?

I think you're making good points, @constantcycle . It's difficult though, because Israel is literally the only Jewish state. It's not as if there were a few more dotted around.
So this situation is unique.

@PoppysAunt,

‘I suppose that you could argue that the Islamist leaders in the horror regimes of Afghanistan etc bring Islam into disrepute.
It would certainly be wrong to target Muslims celebrating Eid in Bradford because of this’

I certainly would argue that, and we are seeing a lot of Islamaphobia today too. Look at the summer riots and Tommy Robinson. Even look at the leader of the free world!

If I were a moderate Moslem, I would be horrified by the majority of the Islamic countries in the world.

Surely that's to blame all Jews, though?
There is no excuse to "amplify" racism.

I only posted those stats because someone compared Israeli deaths on October 7 to the UK population. If you’re going to make proportional analogies like that, you have to include the full picture, Gaza’s civilians, children, missing, and detainees too. Many of these people had no control over Hamas’ actions, and collective punishment of civilians is not justified, no matter what extremists do.

Civilians haven’t always been seen as automatic collateral damage, even in wars like WWII, Korea, Iraq, or Afghanistan. International law exists to limit civilian deaths and forbid collective punishment, because killing people who aren’t responsible for a conflict is a moral and legal responsibility, not an inevitability.

Even if some Gazans supported Hamas, that does not justify mass civilian deaths, the destruction of neighborhoods, or detaining doctors and children. Israel’s military policies, including the Hannibal Directive, put civilians at risk, and unlike Israelis, Gazans have no democratic control over the government or forces carrying out these attacks.

So, proportional comparisons must be consistent. Highlighting Israeli losses while ignoring Palestinian suffering or dismissing it as “collateral” is not moral clarity, it’s selective empathy.

Yes, I'm horrified too. I think the likes of Robinson have certainly gained in traction this summer.
Those of us with a modicum of intelligence can understand that not all boat migrants are rapists and thieves, even if there are some publicised cases. It's about the bigger picture, and regarding people as humans.
We should never lose sight of that.

Disclaimer: I'm not Jewish, but you've said that all views are welcome so I will add my thoughts.

I support the existence of Israel. However, I hate the current Israeli government. I have been appalled by recent events in Gaza and indeed in the West Bank. I do not think it was right to collectively punish the Palestinian people for the abhorrent atrocities of October 7th.

I don't think that Israel bears any responsibility for the recent antisemitic attacks on Jews in the UK, Australia or elsewhere. Responsibility for those attacks sits squarely with the terrorists who perpetrated those attacks.

The idea that anyone could think that innocent Jewish people in the UK or Australia, who were merely going about their day to day lives, could be held responsible in any way for the actions of a foreign government is preposterous and deeply offensive. One of the Bondi Beach victims was just 10 years old ffs - how could anyone possibly think that she should be punished for the actions of politicians in a different continent?

So no, I think it's entirely legitimate to feel anger towards the Israeli government, but I don't think it's remotely legitimate to direct any of that anger towards innocent Jewish people - linking the two in this way is fundamentally racist imo. As such, I don't believe that the Israeli government can be held accountable for the racist prejudices of its enemies. It should, however, be held accountable for its own crimes against the Palestinians.

That's exactly it! I feel other religions benefit from the privilege of having multiple states in a way that Judaism never has- and it's important to remember that antisemitism is very literally to blame for that as well. I feel it's far more taboo to assume that all Muslims share a stance on Afghanistan, or Iran, or Saudi Arabia, or Turkey; and it's also pretty much impossible to belief that any of those countries represent all Muslims in turn.

I think these assumptions shape so much of the antisemitism I see in online discussions, and I don't see nearly enough people being cognizant of these issues and calling them out.

Yes, I agree, @constantcycle .

I just want to clarify: I don't see enough non-Jewish people being cognizant of these issues and calling them out. I don't want it to sound like I think tackling antisemitism is the responsibility of Jewish people alone when I believe it is the responsibility of everyone, especially non-Jewish people with the privilege of calling it out without endangering themselves.

I am not Jewish but I think it’s a complete non-issue.

1. Jewish people who don’t live in Israel are not responsible for Israeli government actions.
2. It makes perfect that most Jews would be zionists, given that it’s the only place they could ever go and guarantee not to be persecuted for being Jewish (notwithstanding the threat of war/terrorism obviously).
3. Israel might do good or bad things. Some Israelis might say they are doing things in the name of Judaism. That doesn’t mean others agree. The extremists in Israel are still a fringe.
4. It is completely reasonable to ‘support Israel’ in a broad sense, because you believe in it in principle, without this implying that you support everything it does.

Countries have a long life and it seems odd to me that one government you don’t agree with would have any impact on your feelings about the country in a general sense. As a person of Hindu Indian heritage, I don’t feel the need to denounce Modi or to re-evaluate my love for India as a country.

If you feel you want to say ‘not in my name’ about the extremist West Bank settlers, that’s up to you. Some Jewish people do but I think many would say that it’s either nothing to do with them or that the existential need to support Israel trumps the need for performative distancing from it. I also think this is a very legitimate stance.

"But condemnation of Israel is called antisemitism constantly. And that is dangerous. It makes people who aren’t antisemitic believe they are. Moving people into a dangerous place. If you can’t speak about Israel torturing teenagers and murdering babies without being told you’re a bigot, you feel resentful and angry. Now I know enough Jewish people, and have enough experience of propaganda to know it’s bullshit. My Jewish friends (bar one and he was in the IDF so that’s a crisis of conscience for you) are all nuanced thinkers, intelligent and conflicted themselves. But a lot of people don’t know Jewish people IRL."

I think this is what most of the arguing about on CITME boils down to?

Is it antisemitic to focus only on Israels wrongs and not the wrongs of others who are doing exactly the same and sometimes worse?

Is it antisemitic to hold Israel to a higher standard than others even in the region and hate them for not meeting that higher standard?

Is it antisemitic to constantly substitute 'Israel' for 'The Current Administration' or 'BN and cronies' ?

I guess I believe it is really

Yes, what's that expression? The only thing that helps evil to succeed, is good people doing nothing.

I also think that targeting civilians is always wrong, so it logically follows that Israel should not be held accountable for terrorists targeting civilians no matter what it has done.

Hard hard agree with all of this.
Israel is so much more than current political leadership.

All those millions of Jews, some of them had never been in a synagogue in their lives, trapped in fortress Europe after 1942, nowhere to go, no country to run to. Some of them got a boat an attempted to go to Mandatory Palestine - the British turned them back, as pp said.
Those of us who aren't Jewish can't really comprehend that; where do you go?
Where do Jewish Australians go if they are fearful of terror in heir current homeland?.

@PoppysAunt ,

‘All those millions of Jews, some of them had never been in a synagogue in their lives, trapped in fortress Europe after 1942, nowhere to go, no country to run to.’

Well, the majority went to the U.S, with many others ending up in commonwealth countries and the U.K.

My family ended up in the U.K., parts of Africa and one in Israel.

But Israel was very necessary after the Holocaust. Although, giving white Jews a country (where there were already people living) wouldn’t play well in today’s climate. Prior to Israel there was a plan to set up a Jewish homeland in Africa on the Kenya/Tanzania border. Obviously, that didn’t go too well.

That is where one side of my family are from.

I find this post most unChristian. And also quite factually incorrect.

Don't you see the creation of Israel as the return of a persecuted people to their homeland? I do.

@dairydebris ,

‘Hard hard agree with all of this.
Israel is so much more than current political leadership.’

It is, but only if the current political leadership is an aberration, rather than the new norm.

The demographics are horrible. The settlers have on average 5 children whereas the rest of the population are similar to Europeans, struggling to replace themselves.

And they are ill educated (on the whole) religious zealots.

If Israel becomes a Jewish theocracy, what use would it be to you or me?!