Jewish and very conflicted re Israel, thoughts please?

[Newbutoldfather]

Please bear with me as I suspect this will be quite long and my own thoughts aren’t really as clear as they should be, but I am curious about your thoughts on this.

I am early 60s, grew up in North London as a secular Jew. Like most Jews I was brought up with stories of the Holocaust and how Israel was founded as a safe haven for U.S. Jews.

I visited there only once as a young adult and toured Jerusalem, Haifa, Tel Aviv, Dead Sea, Masada etc. I was welcomed by all and had an amazing time.

And Israel was a plucky little liberal democracy in a see of enemies, whom they vanquished against the odds.

But, over time, the demographics and politics have changed. There is no question that elements of the government are profoundly racist. This is something I could not imagine when I was young. Add to that a growing muscularity, backed by Trump, and Israel is now a regional superpower (complete with a large nuclear deterrent). I think this confers upon it some responsibility.

There is little question that Israel has committed war crimes, although I don’t believe it has committed genocide. It has also run a torture prison (Sde Teiman), something that is an anathema to most liberal Jews. And the aggressive settlers in the West Bank, given a nod and a wink by Ben G’vir are behaving appallingly.

Zionism is a much used word and, sadly, many don’t agree on its meaning. I am 100% a Zionist in believing in Israel’s right to a peaceful existence and in it defending itself. I am not when I am demanded to back Netanyahu and his cronies.

So, here is the problem. How much of the increasing violence amongst the diaspora should Israel take responsibility for, if any?

Nothing excuses antisemitism, but I can see it being amplified by increasingly aggressive social media posts on both sides is just polarising the issue. Israel may (or may not) have been justified for taking some of its more aggressive actions in Gaza but, regardless, fire emojis by Israeli flags when a hospital has just been destroyed, complete with all the patients, is going to get a reaction!

So, in my opinion, just as the Versailles treaty in no way justified Nazism, Israel in no way justifies antisemitism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t explain the conditions necessary for it to flourish, or not understanding that humiliating the losers of a war creates conditions under which extremism can flourish.

So, if you are Jewish, how much of your backing of Israel is conditional upon its actions, if any?

(all welcome to comment , Jewish or otherwise).

It’s a known fact, I’m not going to trawl through easily accessible facts to link any more than I am to prove that Oct 7th happened.

I’m not Jewish and I totally agree with you, and find it extremely interesting and rather horrifying that other Jewish people don’t because that seems rather like lambs to the slaughter.

I also find the criticism of the Israeli government, especially Netanyahu, disingenuous as it seems to be totally ignored that Israel has been under attack since it’s very inception with constant threats of annihilation. There has been decades of cowardly terrorist attacks on it’s people, and not only in Israel, and it is surrounded by people whose very identity was created to be a constant threat and thorn in their side, who have been brainwashed from birth to want to destroy them and their children to die as martyrs killing them. Israel is constantly on high alert (and has had to develop defence systems no other country needs) but despite this has built a thriving democratic State and is a pioneer in innovation.

Oct 7th was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

Imagine any other country putting up with 77 years of that shit (in addition to the centuries of shit Jewish people as a whole have suffered) and keyboard warriors sitting in their safe country thousands of miles away deciding it shouldn’t exist, it is definitely the baddie and they know better how to conduct an unprecedented war where the other side have absolutely no rules of engagement and publicly admit they use their civilians as human sacrifices.

I think most other countries would have taken a much harder line by now and in the current conflict as in with Gaza, things would have panned out a lot worse, although I can’t imagine any other densely populated urban war like this where a neighbouring country just a few km away wouldn’t have been forced to open it’s borders to refugees, like Egypt should have been.

Anyone with a sense of reason can see exactly what’s going on.

I personally have a lot of respect for Netanyahu and the IDF.

Thank you @BangingBaubles

Well @surreygirly Hamas are estimated to number around 20,000, that's about half of what they had two years ago. With a half-life of two years, by December 2027 they will number 10,000. At this rate, they will be eliminated sometime around 2052.
Even if Israel "has the right to do anything" it's obvious to any sane person that another plan is needed,

I was not suggesting that Israel’s response has been proportionate. (Can war even be proportionate? I’m not sure what is proportionate in all-out war.) For most people on the outside, Gaza is simply curated images of suffering. People feel natural empathy. But it’s empathy at a distance.

It couldn’t happen here.

It’s different here.

We would respond differently.

Would we?

Israel needs to make some sort of peace with its neighbours or suffer the consequences.

I suggest that it may well have seriously damaged its own long term future both by winding up the Palestinians and losing support in the US & Europe by its actions.

Tell us you don’t know much about Israel without telling us you don’t know much about Israel. 🙄

Israel has been trying to make peace with its neighbours for most of its existence. Israel lived in de facto peace with Jordan for decades without any official peace agreement, because Hussein knew what would happen to him if he publicly made peace with Israel. Sadat was assassinated for making peace between Egypt and Israel.

Hamas attacked partly because Israel and Saudi Arabia were close to signing peace agreements.

It’s no wonder the hardliners in Israel are no longer invested in wider peace.

@JohnofWessex read up about the Abraham Accords.
Also about Hamas being an Islamist group who want a Caliphate in the region, which will entail the destruction of Israel.

You can't make peace with people who don't want it. Hamas consistently reject peace while civilians in Gaza want it. Since the ceasefire began Hamas have murdered any Gazan who doesn't support them and the world is silent.

@Dilbertian ,

‘Israel has been trying to make peace with its neighbours for most of its existence. Israel lived in de facto peace with Jordan for decades without any official peace agreement, because Hussein knew what would happen to him if he publicly made peace with Israel. Sadat was assassinated for making peace between Egypt and Israel.
Hamas attacked partly because Israel and Saudi Arabia were close to signing peace agreements.
It’s no wonder the hardliners in Israel are no longer invested in wider peace.’

It is more complex than that.

Iran is a very bad actor in all of this, and she has sponsored most of the anti Israeli terror.

Although Hamas needed to be neutered, trying to kill all of them was a fool’s errand. Israel failed to learn the lesson of 9/11, Iraq and the Baath party.

Hamas are a big diverse group. They are not only evil terrorists but also administrators. Israel are taking them out without in any sense replacing them. At least the U.S attempted to win hearts and minds.

Israel should have gone after Iran immediately and got help from the U.S and the Arab world.

In a way, for the first time in years, Iran is at least partially neutered and Israel have a chance to make peace. But they have to accept they have to give back the occupied territories and not annexe them.

And work with the international community.

@HappyFace2025 ,

‘Since the ceasefire began Hamas have murdered any Gazan who doesn't support them and the world is silent.’

I see this argument a lot and it is a bit of a straw man. I have never met anyone in real life or read anyone on here who thinks Hamas are anything but evil terrorists.

But wanting Hamas destroyed and wanting the civilian population destroyed or exiled are not the same thing.

'Israel should have gone after Iran immediately and got help from the U.S and the Arab world.'

While I agree with some of your post, I doubt very much that the US would have jumped in to support the bombing of Iran immediately after 7/10. I suspect the thinking was that the war in Gaza would be relatively short term, until the many miles of underground tunnels were discovered, from where the terrorists would shelter and come out as and when the IDF ground forces were nearby. It was almost guerilla warfare and not what was anticipated.

I was a child in the 50s. I'm sure there were still people who were anti-Semites but the shock and horror of the recent Holocaust made people generally sympathetic. I lived within walking distance if the main synagogue in my city so lots of Jews lived locally as many Jews would want to be close to the synagogue. The first purpose built mosque in the city was built nearby in the 60s

At my school the Rabbi and the Imam came in on Fridays to have an assembly and prayers for girls of their faith. We were always taught we, Christians Jews Muslims, were all people of The Book and were united more than divided by our faiths. Oh for those days again.

Thinking about it as an Irish Catholic I was probably seen as a dangerous outsider. I started working as a civilian support worker with the local police force. I was shocked when a colleague told me they'd been told to watch me as an antiterrorist officer said he'd seen me drinking in pro IRA clubs. Colleagues found it quite funny as I'm a lifelong teetotaller and I've never been in a club pro IRA or otherwise. I tell a lie i did go to a comedy night once at a local working mens club, does that count

I agree. Although I’m not sure there would have been popular support for attacking Iran, outside Israel.

I said 'some sort of peace'

Now the figures are that about 85% of those who fight for Hamas have lost a close family member to the Israeli security forces.

OK, its probably a bit late BUT clearly if the State of Israel had decided that the avoidable deaths of Palestinians either at the hands of the security forces or the 'settlers' on the West Bank wasnt a good idea then that MIGHT have at least avoided or ratcheted down some of the violence from Hamas.

Look at the West Bank and what the settlers are doing with impunity, killing Palestinians, destroying their homes and property, stealing their land. Sorry but its not a way of making friends and influencing people.

Discuss - sensibly

"Discuss - sensibly"
Why do you find it necessary to post that instruction? Do you think discussion so far has been silly?

Thanks. Was about to reply the same!

The most sensible reply to such a pompous didact is - unprintable.

😂