Jewish and very conflicted re Israel, thoughts please?

[Newbutoldfather]

Please bear with me as I suspect this will be quite long and my own thoughts aren’t really as clear as they should be, but I am curious about your thoughts on this.

I am early 60s, grew up in North London as a secular Jew. Like most Jews I was brought up with stories of the Holocaust and how Israel was founded as a safe haven for U.S. Jews.

I visited there only once as a young adult and toured Jerusalem, Haifa, Tel Aviv, Dead Sea, Masada etc. I was welcomed by all and had an amazing time.

And Israel was a plucky little liberal democracy in a see of enemies, whom they vanquished against the odds.

But, over time, the demographics and politics have changed. There is no question that elements of the government are profoundly racist. This is something I could not imagine when I was young. Add to that a growing muscularity, backed by Trump, and Israel is now a regional superpower (complete with a large nuclear deterrent). I think this confers upon it some responsibility.

There is little question that Israel has committed war crimes, although I don’t believe it has committed genocide. It has also run a torture prison (Sde Teiman), something that is an anathema to most liberal Jews. And the aggressive settlers in the West Bank, given a nod and a wink by Ben G’vir are behaving appallingly.

Zionism is a much used word and, sadly, many don’t agree on its meaning. I am 100% a Zionist in believing in Israel’s right to a peaceful existence and in it defending itself. I am not when I am demanded to back Netanyahu and his cronies.

So, here is the problem. How much of the increasing violence amongst the diaspora should Israel take responsibility for, if any?

Nothing excuses antisemitism, but I can see it being amplified by increasingly aggressive social media posts on both sides is just polarising the issue. Israel may (or may not) have been justified for taking some of its more aggressive actions in Gaza but, regardless, fire emojis by Israeli flags when a hospital has just been destroyed, complete with all the patients, is going to get a reaction!

So, in my opinion, just as the Versailles treaty in no way justified Nazism, Israel in no way justifies antisemitism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t explain the conditions necessary for it to flourish, or not understanding that humiliating the losers of a war creates conditions under which extremism can flourish.

So, if you are Jewish, how much of your backing of Israel is conditional upon its actions, if any?

(all welcome to comment , Jewish or otherwise).

You think BN's 'crime' of the war in Gaza is 'equally sickening' to the Holocaust? No no no no no 😬 there is no comparison. People really need to stop equating the two. We see it time and again on here.

If you know nothing of the Holocaust and nothing of the reasons of the war in Gaza then please just don't comment.

This is a recognized form of antisemitism and I'm going to assume you said it in ignorance rather than anything more sinister.

@dairydebris ,

‘You think BN's 'crime' of the war in Gaza is 'equally sickening' to the Holocaust? No no no no no 😬 there is no comparison. People really need to stop equating the two. We see it time and again on here’

Well I know a fair bit about both, having lost family in the holocaust and following Israel’s struggle for about 40 years of my adult life.

And no, the Holocaust is pretty much sui generis, both in terms of numbers and the cultural destruction. Hopefully, we will never see the likes of it ever again.

But Netanyahu was prevented by Biden of originally starving and causing a drought in Gaza, an Israeli MP suggested nuking Gaza in the Knesset, which would have been equally evil and stupid (I don’t think radioactive isotopes would have respected the ‘fence’), Israel Katz referred to Palestinians as non-human animals (which definitely has shades of the Holocaust about it) and Netanyahu asked the IDF to herd Palestinians into a fortified camp. Luckily the IDF courageously refused.

I don’t buy into it being a genocide, despite the court ruling. I think that is a bit of a joke. What genocide leaves the citizens in place and kills 3% of them.

But I do think that it was a close run thing and could have become one.

The easy answer is that I am a zionist, but I think Netanyahu should be in prison. I am revolted by the antics of the settlers and I dont support the current Israeli government in any way.

But if course it is more complex than that. Israel has a lot of unresolved tensions, including the role of religion in a largely secular democracy, how it sustains its Jewishness while respecting the rights of minorities, who gets to represent Judaism, the increasingly unsustainable benefits and privileges enjoyed by the orthodox, and its relationship to the diaspora. Can we speak for Israel, can it speak for us? Are we just expected to provide funding and unwavering support?

I still have hope that the large number of progressives and peaceniks inside Israel will find their power. I guess I will never feel fully resolved about Israel. I won't live there. But the thought of it not being there is frightening. The world is not safe for Jews without it.

To answer the question, Israel isn’t responsible for antisemitism. History shows that antisemitism does not need a state of Israel in order to flourish and thrive.

I agree with @dairydebris’s posts on this thread.

There is a terrible circularity to the rhetoric that needs to stop.

Some (a lot) of the things Israel and Israelis have done before and after October 7 have been criminal and unacceptable. And not justifiable or legal. Or sensible for that matter. Saying that is not antisemitism.

But condemnation of Israel is called antisemitism constantly. And that is dangerous. It makes people who aren’t antisemitic believe they are. Moving people into a dangerous place. If you can’t speak about Israel torturing teenagers and murdering babies without being told you’re a bigot, you feel resentful and angry. Now I know enough Jewish people, and have enough experience of propaganda to know it’s bullshit. My Jewish friends (bar one and he was in the IDF so that’s a crisis of conscience for you) are all nuanced thinkers, intelligent and conflicted themselves. But a lot of people don’t know Jewish people IRL.

Thanks OP for being nuanced, intelligent and conflicted. We all should be about what’s happening. And remember that the vast majority of people from every religion and none are nice people. Boring, peaceful, average and they want the world to be kind to children of all races and religions. And their own children. Letting a few spittle-flecked, swivel-eyed loons convince us that conflict death and war are ever good is a terrible idea.

The only feature of most people involved in most conflicts that is consistent is sex. And we’re on mumsnet so that’s mostly doesn’t apply to any of us.

I agree actually and will be watching the case really closely. The withholding of aid and the awful rhetoric coming out of some of the Knesset members will not have helped Israels case. I dont think there will be a finding of genocide but I do think theres a chance I'm wrong.

Nonetheless comparing the completely unprovoked and industrial slaughter of the Holocaust to the terrible war in Gaza is pretty unforgivable imo. I wish people would stop.

I’m not Jewish, but I also grew up in Noeth London with the synagogue (which has turned into a fortress) on my road, and at school with Jewish girls. My first job was at a Jewish-owned company, as is my current job.

I’m not sure what you mean by “violence among” the diaspora. The violence appears to be a one-way street to me, against Jews from a variety of sources. Jew hate isn’t limited to any one group.

No Jew is responsible for anything the Israeli government does. Nor are most Israelis.

I honestly believe it’s a simple as that. I mean, I’m not bloody responsible for Brexit and I won’t have it laid upon my shoulders.

@PoppysAunt ,

‘I would say to answer your question - none.
A 10 year old Jewish girl on a beach in Australia has had no part in this, and anyone who imagines that somehow Jews can collectively take responsibility for the Jewish state would not apply those standards to any other group.’

I think this is where I am most conflicted.

I think I already made the analogy with the Versailles treaty and Hitler. Nothing excuses Hitler but the Versailles treaty humiliation created a climate which bred resentment and where extremism could flourish.

And the majority of my Jewish friends think I should ‘support Israel’ (whatever that means) or I become a Jew-hating Jew. Some have never even been to Israel, whereas I had close family living there.

Thd problem is that if Israel wants to be ‘The Jewish state’, it is obliged to represent Jewish values. Or, the diaspora have to dissociate themselves with Israel, in the same way as I would expect moderate Muslims to clearly dissociate themselves with ISIS, Al Qaeda and the like and not hedge and equivocate about it

In the same way as we have Islam (generally moderate and kind and Islamism (quite the opposite!), we have the Judaism of me and my friends and the Judaism of Smotrich, Ben G’vir and Katz (and maybe Netanyahu, though his views are harder to fathom). These are openly racist and want to eliminate the Palestinians and create a greater Israel. This is theocratic fascism, no different from Islamic theocratic fascism.

I don’t think Israel is that bad yet, but the direction of travel isn’t good.

The Versailles Treaty did create a climate in Germany, however, extremist groups only began to do well in the 1932 elections, after the Wall St Crash.
The existence of Israel is not an excuse for violence against Jews any more than Iran or Afghanistan would be for Muslims.
I am horrified by what is happening in Afghanistan, but I certainly wouldn't target my Muslim neighbour, nor hold him to blame.

If you want to scale the deaths and hostages of Israeli citizens on 7 October to the UK, then intellectual honesty requires doing the same scaling for Gaza

Israel

• Israeli population: ~9.8 million
• Killed on 7 Oct: ~1,139
• Hostages taken: 251
• Total affected: ~1,390

That is 0.016% of Israel’s population

Scaled to the UK (≈69 million):
10,600 people killed or taken hostage
That analogy is emotionally powerful — and valid.

But now apply the same method to Gaza

Gaza population (pre-war):

• ~2.1 million people

Since 7 October 2023:

• Killed: ~69,000
• Children killed: ~20,000
• Missing / buried under rubble: ~6,000
• Detained by Israel (many without charge): 4,000–10,000 Including hundreds of doctors, nurses, and medical staff

Percentages (this is the key part)

• Killed: ~3.3% of Gaza’s population
• Children killed: ~1% of the entire population
• Killed + missing: ~3.6%
• Detained: ~0.2–0.5%

Now scale THAT to the UK

UK population ≈ 69 million.

If the UK experienced what Gaza has:

• 3.3% killed → ~2.3 million people dead
• 1% children killed → ~690,000 children
• 0.3% missing under rubble → ~200,000 missing
• 0.2–0.5% detained → 140,000–350,000 people detained,
• including thousands of doctors and nurses

That is the true proportional comparison.

So the honest conclusion is this:

Yes — October 7 was a horrific crime.
Yes — no state would respond mildly to such an attack.

But if we are going to use population-scaled analogies to explain trauma, then we must apply them consistently.

When we do, Gaza is not the equivalent of:

• “another Manchester”
• or
• “another stadium attack”

It is the equivalent of:

• millions dead
• hundreds of thousands of children killed
• entire cities erased
• doctors, patients, and civilians disappeared or detained

To scale Israeli suffering to Western imagination while refusing to scale Palestinian suffering the same way is not moral clarity it is selective empathy.

You cannot argue “imagine this happening in our safe Western country” and then refuse to imagine what has already happened when the numbers are applied evenly.

That is the double standard and the maths makes it impossible to ignore.

I think Versailles partly explains WW2, but its racism that explains Hitler. We could have had a WW2 without a Holocaust, but because Hitler was a raging antisemite WW2 had this extra dimension to it.

I think racists will always use events to justify the hatreds they hold in their hearts. But the hatred was there before and will be afterwards. We see this with all forms of racism, not just antisemitism.

I wish the focus could be on peace - there are people (the majority of people on both sides) who want peace, and people who don't (Netanyahu, Hamas). The focus needs to be on the fact that bad actors are keeping the violence going to suit their own interests.

Well for this reason I'm glad my government hasnt chosen to commit a horrific terrorist attack on for example France, in case France were to react by slaughtering so many of us in an attempt to get at the perpetrators.

I’m sure I once read somewhere that if it hadn’t been for the final solution and the Holocaust, Hitler could well have won the war. As you say, they are not one and the same thing.

That framing assumes civilians are legitimate collateral for the actions of an armed group they don’t control.

By that logic, any population anywhere could be punished en masse for the actions of extremists, which is exactly why international law exists, and why collective punishment is prohibited.

Gazans did not “choose” October 7. Half the population are children. Many weren’t even born when Hamas came to power. There were no elections after 2006, and dissent has been violently suppressed.

Saying “I’m glad my government didn’t do X in case another country slaughtered us” quietly normalises the idea that slaughtering civilians is a reasonable response, it isn’t. It’s a choice, not a reflex.

We can condemn Hamas without pretending that the mass killing of civilians, doctors, and children is somehow inevitable or morally neutral.

Almost impossible to say, but certainly trying to move 10 million people across Europe to extermination sites during a total war was not a good use of resources, humanity aside.
However, there would not have been a war without the racism, including the perception of Eastern Europeans as "Dungervolk".
All part of the same war aim.

Its been a while since I studied WW2 in depth but I dont remember reading that anywhere. I thought we pretty much turned a blind eye to the persecution of Jews, although when we got so far as the camps ( ie already winning ) we were rightly horrified by what we saw.
I think I remember also reading about a boat of Holocaust survivors being turned away from the UK before heading to Israel.

I honestly think antisemitism is woven so deeply into many societies that its very, very difficult to spot and weed out. Everyone knows it's increasing, but they themselves are never antisemitic. Nor their friends. And the use of tropes on here is so so common. We have a Christian using Holocaust Inversion with absolutely no shame above. I don't know what the answer is but Jewish people must be fucking exhausted.

No, I don’t mean that - I agree that Europe’s existing bad treatment of Jews totally paved the way. Reading Hadley Freeman’s book really drove that home to me.

No, it’s more as @PoppysAunt said - diverting resources to finance the Holocaust - that kind of thing. Sorry, it was a while ago I read this so I can’t remember the details.

Good points, @dairydebris . On a thread about Bondi the other day, some posts had to be removed as they were antisemitic - no grey area. A Jewish poster sent me a DM thanking me for speaking up on that thread - she said that her children were too scared to go to a Hanukkah party. In the UK.
It is literally inexcusable.

Of course it is ridiculous to hold Jewish people to account for Israel's actions. It's not even a matter worth considering.
What is important though, is the ways in which Israel's actions have brought shame on the faith. Netanyahu repeatedly talks about his "Jewish state" and by doing so, his country's actions and policies bring Judaism into disrepute. Judaism is not a religion of indiscriminate hatred and slaughter. It has always been one that has tried to represent fairness and having been the "underdog" so often, Jews were generally associated with supporting minorities.
Anyone who looks at Israel and thinks that it follows Jewish values and traditions is a fool. I'll include the Chief Rabbi Mirvis in this. His blind allegiance to Israel and almost unequivocal support for all it does, also disgraces Judaism. Too many extremists, like Netanyahu are dragging Judaism, into the gutter.

I'm sorry to inform you that citizens are always legitimate collateral in any war. Do you think no civilians died in WW2? Iraq? Against Isis? The Korean War? Afghanistan. Civilians are always collateral- which is why a nation should be only be starting one as an absolute last resort.

In this one in particular Hamas has called its own people 'necessary sacrifices.'

Latest polls show approx 50% of Gazans support Hamas' 7 October attack.

Things arn't as nice and fluffy as we wish they were.

But this is a derail. The OP is asking if Israels actions are responsible for antisemitism. My answer is No, not at all.

Meant to quote @MushroomWellingtonLady

@mouthpipette ,

Great post!

I could not agree more.

What many people forget is that plenty of Israelis (maybe a majority) would also agree.

Ooo ok I'll read that one, thanks, I love Hadley Freeman. xx

But where is that difference/definition when a very large number of civilians were the very people who got in on Oct 7th, raping and burning?

It’s a fabulous book - House of Glass. No-one gets off Scott free, that’s for sure.