Jewish and very conflicted re Israel, thoughts please?

[Newbutoldfather]

Please bear with me as I suspect this will be quite long and my own thoughts aren’t really as clear as they should be, but I am curious about your thoughts on this.

I am early 60s, grew up in North London as a secular Jew. Like most Jews I was brought up with stories of the Holocaust and how Israel was founded as a safe haven for U.S. Jews.

I visited there only once as a young adult and toured Jerusalem, Haifa, Tel Aviv, Dead Sea, Masada etc. I was welcomed by all and had an amazing time.

And Israel was a plucky little liberal democracy in a see of enemies, whom they vanquished against the odds.

But, over time, the demographics and politics have changed. There is no question that elements of the government are profoundly racist. This is something I could not imagine when I was young. Add to that a growing muscularity, backed by Trump, and Israel is now a regional superpower (complete with a large nuclear deterrent). I think this confers upon it some responsibility.

There is little question that Israel has committed war crimes, although I don’t believe it has committed genocide. It has also run a torture prison (Sde Teiman), something that is an anathema to most liberal Jews. And the aggressive settlers in the West Bank, given a nod and a wink by Ben G’vir are behaving appallingly.

Zionism is a much used word and, sadly, many don’t agree on its meaning. I am 100% a Zionist in believing in Israel’s right to a peaceful existence and in it defending itself. I am not when I am demanded to back Netanyahu and his cronies.

So, here is the problem. How much of the increasing violence amongst the diaspora should Israel take responsibility for, if any?

Nothing excuses antisemitism, but I can see it being amplified by increasingly aggressive social media posts on both sides is just polarising the issue. Israel may (or may not) have been justified for taking some of its more aggressive actions in Gaza but, regardless, fire emojis by Israeli flags when a hospital has just been destroyed, complete with all the patients, is going to get a reaction!

So, in my opinion, just as the Versailles treaty in no way justified Nazism, Israel in no way justifies antisemitism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t explain the conditions necessary for it to flourish, or not understanding that humiliating the losers of a war creates conditions under which extremism can flourish.

So, if you are Jewish, how much of your backing of Israel is conditional upon its actions, if any?

(all welcome to comment , Jewish or otherwise).

But in other respects there are very real, practical reasons why it makes sense for people in the UK to be vocal about the actions of the Israeli government in a way that's less relevant to other states/actors in the region and beyond.

When your government is supplying weapons to another government, then it's much more relevant to critique that government's actions in defence and war than a government to whom we are not providing that support.

In once sense I agree with you that everyone should be held to the same standards but also risks quickly descending into "whataboutery".

I would really like to thank everyone for their interesting and thoughtful contributions.

I was afraid this thread might turn into a bunfight, but I am very pleasantly surprised.

It is nice to be able to discuss and even disagree in a civilised manner.

@dairydebris ,

‘Agree, I think, particularly with the othering of other states in the region- who are somehow not expected to meet the same standards... actually I can't understand how it can be anything other than racism in one direction or the other.’

Some of it might be racism but some of it might be criticising a good friend who is making bad decisions.

Israel might just listen and change, whereas criticising Iran, say, is just whistling in the wind.

I think because you said you were Jewish and conflicted helped this thread not turn into a bunfight.

I'm not Jewish and am conflicted because I support the Palestinian people but not Hamas.

That's actually a really good point.

@dilbertian I can understand the visceral response to such an atrocity from Israelis, but but your method of calculation, the response from Israel would have been to kill the equivalent of well over a million people within the UK. How would we have responded to that and could we ever move on?

@Newbutoldfather thank you for your reflective post - this conflict has certainly challenged allegiance and beliefs and made us question how best lasting peace can be achieved.

Yes I think there's an element of this.

I also think there's an element amongst some of the left-wing support for Palestine that is generally anti-establishment and sees Israel as being part of the establishment.

(I say this as someone who is both fairly left wing and critical of Israel).

Yes, I think that's a very good point.

So you'd 'reductio ad absurdum' is one of the many issues with having a conversation about this. As @MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBacksays, there are reasons, probably actually Islamophobic and colonialist ones, why we hold Israel to a different standard.

Of course I don't excuse male violence anywhere. But do I blame random non-combatants in a dictatoship like Afghanistan for the actions of the Taliban? Of course not. Do I hold voters partially responsible for the forseeable actions of their elected leaders? Yes, I do.

No. It's not "reductio ad absurdum".
I'm joining in a conversation about different regimes being held to different standards - it's genuinely a curious thing. How do we reconcile this? If we say something is ok from one nation, but not another?
Why are Israelis held to a higher standard, as pp have said?
Posters have attempted to answer that, so do not dismiss my point.
It's been a very civilised discussion thus far.

Well, I don't think the Taliban or their ilk are going to suddenly change any time soon either, but I absolutely hold out the hope that more progressive thinkers in those countries will ultimately find a way of gaining power.

But what you say underlines my point, really. Regimes like the Tailban do not purport to share our values in the way that most liberal democracies do. That doesn't mean that we believe that their citizens should have fewer rights than we do, or indeed that they would be any less capable of living in a society where their rights were respected. It is merely a recognition - and perhaps to some extent an acceptance - that they are currently living in a society which does not aspire to the same ideals or values.

Well, stranger things have happened, @MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack .
So we can only hope, as you say.

Do you hold the adults in Gaza who voted for Hamas partially responsible for 7 October? Hamas were explicit about their aims in the election they won. Like you said, foreseeable actions.

Problematic isnt it?

You can't hold citizens responsible for the actions of their elected governments. Neither Jewish nor Palestinian. You can only hold people responsible for their own actions.

Israel is not responsible for antisemitism. We cannot go down that road with any nation.

I think there is a strong element of racism in some pro-Palestine rhetoric, which portrays Palestinians like children, with no agency. Most people disagree with the West Bank settler situation and the extreme element of the Israeli government. It seems harder for some pro-Palestinians to accept that there is anything their ‘side’ does that’s not somehow Israel’s fault.

also it’s worth remembering that Israel’s electoral system makes for difficult coalitions - I don’t know how many Israelis voted for Netanyahu - and their government is subject to plenty of scrutiny and protests by Israelis. It is a democracy albeit a flawed one (and a pretty embattled one)

Its important to remind ourselves as @Ddakji did that Israel was working with Saudi Arabia to normalise relations when Oct 7 happened.

I also think it’s important to remember why Israel is needed, as the ONLY Jewish state. I feel uncomfortable when posters say things like ‘religion is the problem’ which seems to me to deny Jews’ ethnic identity and ignores the absolutely tiny numbers of Jews there are. I agree that the ultra-orthodox are problematic - but extremists in any religion are.

Very good points 👍

@SisterTeatime , yes, I agree. Particularly the issue of the various coalitions in Israeli governments.

I agree with this post especially the point that Most people disagree with the West Bank settler situation and the extreme element of the Israeli government. It seems harder for some pro-Palestinians to accept that there is anything their ‘side’ does that’s not somehow Israel’s fault.

I feel conflicted too @Newbutoldfather as a non Jewish person who generally supports Israel but not the every aspect of what their government is doing. I don't support any extremists, including the more right wing element of the Israeli government. I don't support the Settlers. I definitely feel like bad decisions have been made, for example to withhold humanitarian aid.

But also - I do very much sympathise with the situation Israel found themselves in on 7/10/23 and feel like had that happened in the UK, I would have expected our government to fight back hard too.

@SisterTeatime ,

‘also it’s worth remembering that Israel’s electoral system makes for difficult coalitions - I don’t know how many Israelis voted for Netanyahu - and their government is subject to plenty of scrutiny and protests by Israelis. It is a democracy albeit a flawed one (and a pretty embattled one)’

Yes, PR does make for ‘difficult’ coalitions, but the Israeli religious party is similar to the BNP, openly racist. Can you imagine a couple of BNP ministers in the UK government and this being excused?

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Politics/Otzma_political_platform.pdf

So, this is their manifesto. And, remember, that is what they are prepared to commit to paper. They have said far worse in private.

Agree with all of this.

Demographic problem heh. Quite chilling.

I don’t think it’s saying that it’s OK for some to do and not OK for others, and things like international law must apply equally to everyone. It’s more a case of how outspoken the criticism is - which in the case of Israel I think can be attributed to various factors. Not denying for a moment antisemitism is one of those factors.

Yes, I would agree 👍

I am older than you OP and have also visited Israel where I have relatives. I HRTFT but
a) I am a secular Jew
b) i don't believe for one moment that Israel's actions to protect all her citizens from Hamas has been over the top. What few people seem to understand is the constant fear Israelis (whatever their religion or ethnicity) have on a daily basis from rocket attacks and bombings within their territory
c) the rapid increase of antisemitism here and elsewhere in the world is fuelled by misinformation too easily found on TikTok, X Instagram etc
d) when primary aged children have to be taught 'Sleeping Lions' and play dead in the event of a gunman entering their classroom here in London, I know there is something disgustingly evil within our society
e) the result of the above has made me more proud of my Jewish heritage and I am just as proud to be a Zionist. A century ago we had nowhere to go to escape the Holocaust. Now we do.

That's why I'm glad we don't have PR.
Some European governments regularly have extreme politicians as part of their coalition.

Thank you. I agree, it’s troubling and not something we would want here. One reason I’m not in favour of PR.