Reconstruction of Gaza - realistic?

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj41y42qxq8o

I think the problem with the below is the mammoth coast and the problem of who pays. To build a city of the size of Birmingham from scratch including public infrastructure to a sufficient standard using non slave Labour is going to be astronomical. Who pays? All the Arab states (although some with concentrated extreme wealth) have their own domestic pressures without stumping up hundreds of billions to produce a new sixth state. There could be international loans but that would bring into question Gazan public debt and how loans could be repaid.

There is also the thorny question about how Gazans go about establishing legal ownership of land or whether they need to buy it again. It seems like a conveyincing nightmare. One solution would be to build identical properties and allocate them the to the populace as a whole but would Gazans want this form of communism in terms of property? If you do have a housing market how do establish a realistic economy to support it?

International aid is extremely stressed and certainly as a UK tax payer I would hope we wouldn't get to involved and as Gazan reconstruction is talked about we should be conscious of the levels of poverty in other regions of the world.

Can you answer my question though? Who's more responsible?

( why am I even asking? You never have before. )

We will never see adherence to international law. Its a sticking plaster on every nation's own self interest. Every single nation on earth is the same in this respect. Ireland for example makes the right noises but have they sent troops to fight Israel? Have they taken Palestinian refugees?

US, UK and Israel and 100% responsible for the dead civilians in Gaza. No one MAKES you murder innocent people. As children we learn we are responsible for our own actions, if you push someone you get in trouble regardless of who else was pushing people. Israel is like that spoilt kid in the playground gorging on sweets and hitting other kids - it has always been funded by other countries and excuses have always been made for it’s crimes against humanity. It has been a murderous regime that steals over and over again since it’s formation in 1948z

Israel dropped those bombs, Israel shot those children, Israeli guards tortured, raped and murdered those prisoners, Israel held children without charge in their jails, Israel denied and continue to deny food and medicine to enter the strip, they prevent dying children from leaving the strip. Israel bomb their neighbours and steal territory over and over and over again. Yes they are responsible because they did it, they boast about doing it and they will do it over and over again until they own all the land they deem Greater Israel - who knows if they will even stop then!

You hold the UK and the US more responsible than Hamas?

Yes 100%. They paid for the bombs and bullets that recently killed 69k+ Palestinians and continued to fund Israel for decades despite knowing what Israel were doing and continue to do in Palestine - despite the several bombing campaigns where thousands of Palestinians were murdered prior to October 7th!

Hamas are 100% responsible for October 7th but Israel and those that fund it’s weapons are responsible for the countless comparable events suffered by the Palestinians. They funded the Nakba in 1948, they funded the bombs in 2014 just as they funded the bombs today and no matter what they claim, they knew these bombs and bullets were being used on civilians.

Can you explain why your question is relevant to my post?

Ireland aren't warmongering. That was my whole point. They don't send troops to fight anywhere, they send peacekeepers. It isn't against international law not to send your troops to kill people it is against international war to sell weapons the way the UK have been. I don't see the connection you are making between Ireland not sending troops or taking in refugees and the UK selling arms against international law?

Do you have a logical argument as to why countries who advocate for peace should pay for the victims of countries who intentionally break international law and cause widespread death and destruction rather than the countries responsible? Is your argument that Hamas are more responsible therefore the UK, US, German should be excused of their role? If so I still don't see where Spain, Norway and Ireland enter the chat?

There you have it. No assumptions, guesses, or putting words into anyone’s mouth. Despite what it may ‘seem like’ to anyone, those in charge have owned it 100%

Jordan invited lots of Palestinians in and look how that went 🙄

What I don’t understand about this place is that we love to say “when a man tells you who he is, believe him” yet when these genocidal monsters in the Israeli government tell us exactly who they are and what they want, people fall over themselves to not believe them and endlessly give them the benefit of the doubt.

Voluntary emigration my arse.

Who are the European invaders with no connection to the land who are pretending they belong in the Middle East?

Firstly any migration from Gaza must be voluntary with the right to return.

In answer to your question about why should countries such as Ireland, Spain and Norway be the countries to take in such Gazan refugees, then it is simply because those countries have been the ones most sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and therefore presumably the populations of Ireland, Spain and Norway would be much more welcoming to Gazan refugees than say if they went to the USA or Germany.

If I was a refugee fleeing Gaza then I would much rather go to a country where I would actually be welcomed like Ireland, Spain or Norway.

Whether you like it or not and whatever the historical grievances against the establishment of the state of Israel, it exists.

Israel exists as a sovereign state and is recognised as such by the international community.

It is the only Jewish state in the world and is 1/25th the size of France. Your views that “it doesn’t belong” where it exists are irrelevant.

Lots of countries were established in ways many wouldn’t agree with.

The obsession with Israel & just Israel is unhealthy.

And the delegitimation of the Jewish right to self-determination in Israel comes under the IHRA definition of antisemitism.

And Jordan? Why did they cause so much 'mayhem' (to put it politely) in Jordan, who were helpingthem. Perhaps dont bite the hand that feeds or helps? I mean trying to overthrow the Jordanian government and spread the problems they have apparently fled from. No wonder some/many countries are reluctant. How do you work out civilian men from Hamas when Hamas are cowardly hiding amongst innocents.

This.

Its tiny, its the only one it's there. The rest of the middle east isn’t Jewish its predominantly Muslim. Some cannot tolerate a tiny predominantly Jewish country, so use terrorism and that ends badly for everyone.

There is no question that colonization was a common practice centuries ago. Australia, New Zealand, the US, etc. etc. It is a practice which is now unacceptable to the international community. See resolution 1514 of the United Nations General Assembly. In all of those countries though, the indigenous population have equal rights, unlike the Palestinians. The "obsession with Israel" as you put it, is because it is ongoing with the Palestinians suffering for decades and if our so called leaders are going to continue to support Israel unconditionally, it is up to the people to express solidarity with the oppressed Palestinians.

This constant repetition of the lie that Israel is born of European colonialism is really actually quite dangerous. It legitimizes hatred for the state as a whole.

The facts are-

Jewish people originated in the land of Judea. Genetic studies prove this. Some Palestinian people do too. They are close to cousins, genetically speaking.

Despite oppression from many groups, Babylonians, Romans, Christians, Arabs, Turks, British- Jewish people have always lived on this land- sometimes only in a tiny minority.

The remains of a lot of Jewish architecture are amongst the oldest in Jerusalem. The remains of the second temple are underneath the Haram Al Sharif.

It is categorically untrue that Jewish people have no links to the land. Both Jewish and Palestinian people have links to the land. Anything else is a lie. People should ask themselves why this lie is being repeatly told on here, when its so easily disproven.

Its clear to me the lie is being told in an attempt to whip up hatred for the State of Israel. By all means lets debate Israel's oppression of the Palestinians, the responsibility for the Nakba, the abuses of the current Israeli government and the bloody settlers.

But lets have no more of this lie that Jewish people have no links to the land.

100% this.

The word "invited" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here!

Currently writing this from Amman, Jordan, actually. Whenever you run into any of the "invitees" around here you will swiftly learn that the receptionist is from Haifa and the cabbie from Jenin. They'll be equally as quick to inform you about how their families ended up here. The word "invitation" tends not to come up ...

As for your "how that went": I'll assume that's an allusion to Ayul Al-Aswad? That's an genuinely fascinating rabbit hole that doesn't quite back up the implied claim ...

I am not saying that Jews should not have a right to self-determination in the land of Israel. I'm saying the Palestinians should to.

People aren’t going on about Australia, New Zealand or the US not being “in the right place” or questioning their legitimacy to exist or … can’t see the rest of your rant against Israel because it got deleted by MN.

Thats why the question gets raised- what’s so special about Israel? ( apart from being full of Jewish people).