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Conflict in the Middle East

Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

321 replies

NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 26/10/2025 16:40

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

OP posts:
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PevenseygirlQQ · 28/10/2025 08:25

HellsBalls · 28/10/2025 08:17

Jews and Christians live in relative peace.
Islamists are the issue.

When I go to London, it’s not Jewish terrorism I’m worried about.

I think you seem to have a problem with Muslims as you can’t help but mention them in almost every post

SharonEllis · 28/10/2025 09:05

PevenseygirlQQ · 28/10/2025 08:25

I think you seem to have a problem with Muslims as you can’t help but mention them in almost every post

She didn't say muslims. She said Islamists. Islamist terrorism is the biggest terror threat in the UK.

SharonEllis · 28/10/2025 09:07

thingsarelookingupfornigel · 28/10/2025 08:22

Last time I was in London it was a white, English thug who was causing problems at the station. Could be anyone. Doesn’t make me prejudiced though.

Neither does recognising that Islamist terrorism is the biggest terror threat in the UK. A person who gave you hassle at a station is not particularly relevant, though it may affect your prejudices.

PevenseygirlQQ · 28/10/2025 09:16

SharonEllis · 28/10/2025 09:05

She didn't say muslims. She said Islamists. Islamist terrorism is the biggest terror threat in the UK.

Yes in that post she did, read back through the thread, she is obsessed with mentioning Islam/muslims/Islamists.

Thedawnchorus · 28/10/2025 09:52

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 27/10/2025 19:37

I think there is a marked distinction between Israeli leaders and Palestinian leaders though.

Israeli leaders main goal is protecting their civilians and I believe they want to live to peace and don’t wish to annihilate Palestinians.

Palestinian leaders main goal is using their civilians as human sacrifices and collateral damage because they don’t want peace and do wish to annihilate the Jews.

They don’t wish to annihilate the Palestinians???? What do you think “encouraging” voluntary emigration by bombing to oblivion and starving millions of people so they can annex their land and build a riviera is? What do you think using state sponsored settler violence to drive people off their land and annex it is? Israel was born from terrorism being rewarded by Britain so you can’t really blame some of the Palestinians trying the same tactic. I suppose you think Nat Turner was an evil terrorist because he didn’t want to live in peace with the slave owners.

dairydebris · 28/10/2025 10:20

Thedawnchorus · 28/10/2025 09:52

They don’t wish to annihilate the Palestinians???? What do you think “encouraging” voluntary emigration by bombing to oblivion and starving millions of people so they can annex their land and build a riviera is? What do you think using state sponsored settler violence to drive people off their land and annex it is? Israel was born from terrorism being rewarded by Britain so you can’t really blame some of the Palestinians trying the same tactic. I suppose you think Nat Turner was an evil terrorist because he didn’t want to live in peace with the slave owners.

The mask has well and truly slipped now hasnt it?

'Israel was born from terrorism being rewarded by Britain so you can’t really blame some of the Palestinians trying the same tactic.'

Ah yes, those righteous freedom fighter terrorists mmm?

OK. So you think violent resistance/ terrorism is justified in this instance. Again, pretty extreme. But, is violent resistance being successful? How's Palestine looking these days? How's things for the Palestinians living in the West Bank? How's things looking for Palestinians living in Gaza?

You think violent resistance to Israel has been a successful tactic so far?

Or perhaps time to try a new way?

Violent terrorists and their apologists- yes thats you- are to blame for the situation ordinary Palestinians now find themselves in. Keep supporting this way of being and youre supporting the continued oppression of Palestinians. Israel isnt going to let attacks go unpunished. It never has, and it never will again. Never Again, remember?

Learn from past mistakes.

Thedawnchorus · 28/10/2025 10:30

dairydebris · 28/10/2025 10:20

The mask has well and truly slipped now hasnt it?

'Israel was born from terrorism being rewarded by Britain so you can’t really blame some of the Palestinians trying the same tactic.'

Ah yes, those righteous freedom fighter terrorists mmm?

OK. So you think violent resistance/ terrorism is justified in this instance. Again, pretty extreme. But, is violent resistance being successful? How's Palestine looking these days? How's things for the Palestinians living in the West Bank? How's things looking for Palestinians living in Gaza?

You think violent resistance to Israel has been a successful tactic so far?

Or perhaps time to try a new way?

Violent terrorists and their apologists- yes thats you- are to blame for the situation ordinary Palestinians now find themselves in. Keep supporting this way of being and youre supporting the continued oppression of Palestinians. Israel isnt going to let attacks go unpunished. It never has, and it never will again. Never Again, remember?

Learn from past mistakes.

Perhaps you did not quite grasp what I was saying. I do not support violence in any form as I believe diplomacy is always the way forward. Problem is, when one side has no need to and refuses to concede anything then diplomacy has failed. What is the other side supposed to do? There are enough countries in the world who could pressure Israel to come to a diplomatic solution but as they don’t, Israel will concede nothing. What would you suggest the Palestinians do in that situation?

dairydebris · 28/10/2025 13:13

Hamas and Abbas to end the stranglehold they have over Palestinian politics.
Political opposition to the above to flourish and ordinary Palestinians be given a genuine option for leadership that renounces violence and corruption.
Delegates of moderate voices to Europe and the US to make Palestinian state case, without resorting to violence.
Allow transition to be overseen by Arab voices from all over the moderate Muslim world.
Palestinian politics to be genuinely commited to building a viable Palestinian state. Actual policies to address women's rights, employment, rule of law, everything a state needs to be successful. All parties be required to include the right of Israel to exist.
Deal internally with any antisemitic violence.

All the above needs to vv happen to Israeli politics with respect to Palestine. The difference is Israeli politics have the structures in place for Israelis to make that choice for themselves. Palestinians deserve that choice too.

If both sides keep picking leadership that refuses the rights of the others to exist then this perpetual conflict will just rumble on and on.

But I dont believe you can make a powerful argument that Palestinian tactics so far have been successful.

Thedawnchorus · 28/10/2025 14:26

dairydebris · 28/10/2025 13:13

Hamas and Abbas to end the stranglehold they have over Palestinian politics.
Political opposition to the above to flourish and ordinary Palestinians be given a genuine option for leadership that renounces violence and corruption.
Delegates of moderate voices to Europe and the US to make Palestinian state case, without resorting to violence.
Allow transition to be overseen by Arab voices from all over the moderate Muslim world.
Palestinian politics to be genuinely commited to building a viable Palestinian state. Actual policies to address women's rights, employment, rule of law, everything a state needs to be successful. All parties be required to include the right of Israel to exist.
Deal internally with any antisemitic violence.

All the above needs to vv happen to Israeli politics with respect to Palestine. The difference is Israeli politics have the structures in place for Israelis to make that choice for themselves. Palestinians deserve that choice too.

If both sides keep picking leadership that refuses the rights of the others to exist then this perpetual conflict will just rumble on and on.

But I dont believe you can make a powerful argument that Palestinian tactics so far have been successful.

Thank you for a positive and constructive post. Your idea would be fantastic if it could come about. Unfortunately, I have my doubts it could happen. What you are suggesting would require a paradigm shift in attitude, something that I believe would be easier for the Palestinians as they would have a lot to gain, but something that the Israelis would struggle with as it means them losing land. From Begin to Netanyahu, Israeli leaders have been banging on about Greater Israel. They want more land, not less. Netanyahu gave another speech about it just last August. As long as there is no pressure on Israel to change their ways, I can see no way that they would even entertain the idea. I don’t mean just the government either, I mean with the majority of Israeli citizens. Don’t get me wrong, getting rid of Hamas and Fatah would be no walk in the park but I think it would be more achievable than convincing the Israelis as they really have nothing much to gain but a lot to lose.

dairydebris · 28/10/2025 15:22

Thedawnchorus · 28/10/2025 14:26

Thank you for a positive and constructive post. Your idea would be fantastic if it could come about. Unfortunately, I have my doubts it could happen. What you are suggesting would require a paradigm shift in attitude, something that I believe would be easier for the Palestinians as they would have a lot to gain, but something that the Israelis would struggle with as it means them losing land. From Begin to Netanyahu, Israeli leaders have been banging on about Greater Israel. They want more land, not less. Netanyahu gave another speech about it just last August. As long as there is no pressure on Israel to change their ways, I can see no way that they would even entertain the idea. I don’t mean just the government either, I mean with the majority of Israeli citizens. Don’t get me wrong, getting rid of Hamas and Fatah would be no walk in the park but I think it would be more achievable than convincing the Israelis as they really have nothing much to gain but a lot to lose.

I don't agree with your charactisation of Israeli society.

I think if the war stays stopped there's a good chance of more moderate leadership winning the next election. I think a significant portion of Israeli society realizes that there cant be a long lasting peace without a homeland for Palestine too. I think Israeli society is less radicalized against Palestinians than Palestinian society is radicalized against Jews sorry Israel. Even in western media I see a lot more Jewish voices sympathetic to the Palestinian's dire situation than I see Palestinian voices sympathetic to Israel's situation. I see Jewish voices on this forum criticizing BN and the far right frequently. I very rarely see any Palestinian voices take any accountability for the utter shit state of their politics. Its all blame for Israel. I accept this is because of the oppressive nature of Hamas and Abbas holding onto power like a dictator for 20 years. Palestinians and Israelis deserve better leadership in my opinion. But Israel can sort this for herself if her people desire.

I hope I'm proved right next year.
And I hope Palestinian leadership can stop with the violence and try another way, and they get their State as soon as they can be trusted to run one properly.

Thedawnchorus · 28/10/2025 16:25

dairydebris · 28/10/2025 15:22

I don't agree with your charactisation of Israeli society.

I think if the war stays stopped there's a good chance of more moderate leadership winning the next election. I think a significant portion of Israeli society realizes that there cant be a long lasting peace without a homeland for Palestine too. I think Israeli society is less radicalized against Palestinians than Palestinian society is radicalized against Jews sorry Israel. Even in western media I see a lot more Jewish voices sympathetic to the Palestinian's dire situation than I see Palestinian voices sympathetic to Israel's situation. I see Jewish voices on this forum criticizing BN and the far right frequently. I very rarely see any Palestinian voices take any accountability for the utter shit state of their politics. Its all blame for Israel. I accept this is because of the oppressive nature of Hamas and Abbas holding onto power like a dictator for 20 years. Palestinians and Israelis deserve better leadership in my opinion. But Israel can sort this for herself if her people desire.

I hope I'm proved right next year.
And I hope Palestinian leadership can stop with the violence and try another way, and they get their State as soon as they can be trusted to run one properly.

I’m sorry that you don’t agree with my characterization of Israeli society; and I genuinely hope you’re right and I’m wrong; but from everything I’ve read the metrics from polls is that the majority of Israelis support expelling all the Palestinians from Israel. Some polls show support for something even worse. I acknowledge that there are many Israeli’s, not just Jews, who want genuine peace and equality for Palestinians. People like Avi Shlaim, Illan Pappe, Gideon Levy and the many Israeli’s who risk their lives trying to protect Palestinian villages from settler violence in the West Bank.

I don’t think radicalized is the right word to use about how Palestinians feel about Israel. I think a better word is hate and I know you’re not going to like this but I fully understand why. Point is they also want a better life. That hate would eventually abate and die out if their relationship with Israelis improved and I have no doubt the corrupt Palestinian leadership would be gone. At this point though, I really don’t think you can expect to see much support from Palestinians for Israel.

We are never going to agree on this issue but it was nice to have a civilised chat and I really hope you are proved right next year.

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 28/10/2025 20:09

Thedawnchorus · 28/10/2025 16:25

I’m sorry that you don’t agree with my characterization of Israeli society; and I genuinely hope you’re right and I’m wrong; but from everything I’ve read the metrics from polls is that the majority of Israelis support expelling all the Palestinians from Israel. Some polls show support for something even worse. I acknowledge that there are many Israeli’s, not just Jews, who want genuine peace and equality for Palestinians. People like Avi Shlaim, Illan Pappe, Gideon Levy and the many Israeli’s who risk their lives trying to protect Palestinian villages from settler violence in the West Bank.

I don’t think radicalized is the right word to use about how Palestinians feel about Israel. I think a better word is hate and I know you’re not going to like this but I fully understand why. Point is they also want a better life. That hate would eventually abate and die out if their relationship with Israelis improved and I have no doubt the corrupt Palestinian leadership would be gone. At this point though, I really don’t think you can expect to see much support from Palestinians for Israel.

We are never going to agree on this issue but it was nice to have a civilised chat and I really hope you are proved right next year.

How do you think Israelis should feel about Palestinians after the atrocities of Oct 7th and videoed celebrations of the slaughtered bodies of their people being paraded on the streets, and even before that the decades of terrorist attacks - plane hijackings, suicide bombings in nightclubs, pizza parlours and shopping malls, shooting up buses, car rammings, stabbing rampages, the Ramallah lynching?

The insistence that the all the land is their land and they will sacrifice their children as martyrs to kill Jews to get it back?

I struggle to understand how Palestinians in Gaza didn’t take the opportunity for a better life in 2005 tbh if they’re weren’t radicalised against Israel or how they celebrated Oct 7th knowing what had happened.

Israelis on the other hand treated Palestinians in their hospitals with ordinary Israelis volunteering to transport them there, and many employed them with much better wages than they could achieve under their own governments. Palestinians who shared intel to enable them be slaughtered. Israelis also protest against their government on behalf of Palestinians.

See the difference in the mobs who turned out to rip apart two Israelis with their bare hands just for accidentally straying into Palestinian territory.

I don’t think Israeli society on the whole is the problem.

Thedawnchorus · 28/10/2025 21:32

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 28/10/2025 20:09

How do you think Israelis should feel about Palestinians after the atrocities of Oct 7th and videoed celebrations of the slaughtered bodies of their people being paraded on the streets, and even before that the decades of terrorist attacks - plane hijackings, suicide bombings in nightclubs, pizza parlours and shopping malls, shooting up buses, car rammings, stabbing rampages, the Ramallah lynching?

The insistence that the all the land is their land and they will sacrifice their children as martyrs to kill Jews to get it back?

I struggle to understand how Palestinians in Gaza didn’t take the opportunity for a better life in 2005 tbh if they’re weren’t radicalised against Israel or how they celebrated Oct 7th knowing what had happened.

Israelis on the other hand treated Palestinians in their hospitals with ordinary Israelis volunteering to transport them there, and many employed them with much better wages than they could achieve under their own governments. Palestinians who shared intel to enable them be slaughtered. Israelis also protest against their government on behalf of Palestinians.

See the difference in the mobs who turned out to rip apart two Israelis with their bare hands just for accidentally straying into Palestinian territory.

I don’t think Israeli society on the whole is the problem.

How do you feel about the King David Hotel bombing, the sergeants affair, the murder of Lord Moyne, the murder of Folke Bernadotte, a man who saved thousands of Jews from the Nazis, the Deir Yassin massacre, the Tantura massacre, the wiping out of over 400 Palestinian towns, etc, etc!! Where do you think the Palestinian terrorists learned their tactics. Quote “Menachim Begin, how do you feel about being the father of terrorism in the Middle East?” His response, “Not just the Middle East, the World”!

Grateful321 · 28/10/2025 21:33

The ‘war’ didn’t begin on October 7.

It’s great you visited Poland but I think it’s best you speak to actual Jews (not Zionists) and Palestinians (Palestinians are both Muslim and Christians). Visit Palestine.. (the West Bank is safe despite what the media may portray). We all have our opinions from a distance but to actually understand - you need to see/speak to the people suffering. My opinions changed further listening to Israelis who are now against their government.. they do not agree with what is being done to Palestinians. Things are changing.. hopefully for the best.

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 29/10/2025 00:05

Thedawnchorus · 28/10/2025 21:32

How do you feel about the King David Hotel bombing, the sergeants affair, the murder of Lord Moyne, the murder of Folke Bernadotte, a man who saved thousands of Jews from the Nazis, the Deir Yassin massacre, the Tantura massacre, the wiping out of over 400 Palestinian towns, etc, etc!! Where do you think the Palestinian terrorists learned their tactics. Quote “Menachim Begin, how do you feel about being the father of terrorism in the Middle East?” His response, “Not just the Middle East, the World”!

All the incidents you quoted date from long before the ‘Palestinian’ identity and nationalism of today was even created and it was the Palestinians as we know them today who perpetrated what I mentioned in my post.

I raise you the below though if you want to go back that far in history to when Palestinians as a people were just Jews and Arabs:

1920 NEBI MUSA RIOTS
Due to the changing geopolitical landscape of the Middle East (e.g. the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the Sykes-Picot agreement between the United Kingdom and France) and the influx of Jewish immigrants and refugees into Palestine, local Arab leaders began escalating Arab-Jewish tensions. In March of 1920, a widespread demonstration against the Jews of Palestine resulted in the looting of businesses and Arab attacks against Jews. Rioters carried antisemitic slogans, including “Palestine is our land and the Jews are our dogs!” and “de@th to Jews!”
Worried, the Jewish community appealed to the British for protection, but the request was denied. Jewish groups then began arming themselves and practising self-defense. On April 4th, during the Nebi Musa festival, 60,000-70,000 Arabs congregated in Jerusalem and some began attacking Jews. Amin al-Husayni, the British-appointed Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (who later became a Nazi-sympathizer), delivered a virulently antisemitic speech. A riot broke out, with Arabs completely ransacking the Jewish Quarter and desecrating and burning Torah scrolls. Jews were raped and murdered, and the British were extremely slow to respond, only restoring order 4 days later. Christians painted crosses on the outside of their homes so that the rioters would know to spare them. In the end, 4 Jews were killed and 216 were severely injured. 300 Jews had to be evacuated from the Old City. Jews immediately accused the British of complicity, some going so far as to claim that the British had encouraged the Mufti to incite the violence. To make matters worse, a British commission then blamed the Jews for the violence, instead of the Arabs. Frustrated with the British, the Jews formed the Haganah, the precursor to the IDF, to defend themselves.

1929 HEBRON & SAFED MASSACRES
During the British Mandate, Jews had virtually no control of Jewish holy sites, including the Kotel, also known as the Western Wall, the holiest site where they are currently allowed to pray. On Yom Kippur, 1928, the Jews — with the permission of the British — put up a barrier at the Kotel to separate the men and women praying. The barrier was only meant to stay up for 25 hours. Though the Kotel has no significance in Islam, this infuriated the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. He instructed Muslims to disrupt Jewish prayer at the Kotel in any way they could. Rumors spread that the Jews were trying to take control of Temple Mount, which escalated tensions and resulted in antisemitic violence, including a stabbing. In August of 1929, the Haganah offered protection to the Jewish community of Hebron, a mixed Ashkenazi-Sephardi community. The community, largely religious and apolitical, refused, as they believed that the Arabs would only target Zionists. Unfortunately, the opposite happened. The local Arabs offered to spare the Sepharadim of Hebron if they gave up the Ashkenazim; the Sepharadim refused. As such, 67-69 Jews were brutally massacred. The descriptions of the violence are hard to read: a boy’s head was torn off, a 7-year-old was tied to a door and tortured for hours on end, women were raped, many were mutilated, and 7 men were castrated. Out of 20,000 Arabs in the city, only 28 families protected Jews, at great risk to themselves. The survivors were evacuated by the British. Historian Hillel Cohen considers the 1929 Hebron Massacre the true beginning to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, marking the point of no return in the complete disintegration of Jewish-Arab relations. The pogrom united the various Jewish communities of Palestine under the Zionist cause, as they realized that no matter where they stood politically, the Arabs would target them anyway.
Riots and pogroms spread to other cities, including Jerusalem and Safed. Overall, 133 Jews were killed. The extremist Jewish paramilitary groups, the Irgun and Lehi, were formed in response to these massacres.

1936 JAFFA RIOTS
On April 15, 1936, followers of an antisemitic Syrian preacher shot 3 Jewish men, with only one surviving. In response, members of the Irgun shot two Arabs. By the 17th of April, violence between the Jews and the Arabs escalated. On April 19th, the unfounded blood libel that “many Arabs had been killed by Jews” resulted in an Arab attack against the Jews of Jaffa. A mob attacked Jewish businesses, and Jews were killed in the streets.
Jews were mercilessly stabbed and beaten. Jewish businesses were destroyed. The rioting lasted 3 days until it was suppressed by the British military. 9 Jews were killed. 12,000 Jews fled Jaffa; many then had to stay in refugee camps. As a result of the violence, the Jews of Jaffa demanded that their neighborhoods be incorporated into Tel Aviv, which would offer them greater protection. Historians mark this event as the beginning of the 1936-1939 Arab Revolt in Palestine. In May of 1936, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem called for a general strike against the Jews, calling Zionists terrorists and comparing them to Nazis (an odd comparison, considering the Mufti was an actual Nazi sympathizer himself). Throughout the course of the revolt, Arabs killed some 500 Jews.

1938 TIBERIAS POGROM
During the 1936-1939 Arab Revolt, 70 armed Arab rioters entered a Jewish neighborhood in Tiberias and slaughtered 19 Jews, including 11 children. The Jews were virtually protection-less, with only 15 Jewish guards protecting a neighborhood of over 2000 people. Two of the guards were killed during the pogrom. Jewish homes and the local synagogue were set on fire. In one of the homes, a mother and her five children were massacred.
A British representative stated: "It was systematically organized and savagely executed. Of the nineteen Jews killed, including women and children, all save four were stabbed to death. That night and the following day the troops engaged the raiding gangs.” After the attack, the Irgun proposed a joint retaliatory attack with the Haganah. However, the Haganah did not agree, as its policy was to abstain from offensive (vs. defensive) violence. As such, no retaliatory attack took place.
25 days after the pogrom, local Arabs murdered the Jewish mayor of Tiberias.

Here’s more:

www.fondapol.org/en/study/pogroms-in-palestine-before-the-creation-of-the-state-of-israel-1830-1948/

TBF I personally don’t feel much about people who had no relation to me dying almost a century ago.

Despite being British myself, I can acknowledge that the Brits certainly did screw the Jews over to appease the Arabs, who were a much greater risk in terms of violence and violent unrest, at that time.

You’re not seriously saying the Palestinians want to avenge the Brits killed by the Jews too?

DancefloorAcrobatics · 29/10/2025 10:23

@JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet

I think to bring these historical incidents into some sort of context one needs to understand that the Arabs as a nation didn't exist as such. They are/ were tribal people, which is of course linked to the land as well as the control of trade routes through the desert. Otterman or European rule did not extinguish this. They could not control individual tribes and had somewhat a limited influence on the way of life of the Arabs as a nation. Otterman rule lasted as long as it did because they let them get on with it on a local level... unlike the Europeans.

dairydebris · 29/10/2025 10:43

DancefloorAcrobatics · 29/10/2025 10:23

@JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet

I think to bring these historical incidents into some sort of context one needs to understand that the Arabs as a nation didn't exist as such. They are/ were tribal people, which is of course linked to the land as well as the control of trade routes through the desert. Otterman or European rule did not extinguish this. They could not control individual tribes and had somewhat a limited influence on the way of life of the Arabs as a nation. Otterman rule lasted as long as it did because they let them get on with it on a local level... unlike the Europeans.

I do feel the Palestinian grievance is fair though, a lot of Arab identities got their nations around this time, I think it was reasonable for Palestinian Arabs to hope for the same. I still think its reasonable.

The problem has arisen because Palestinian leadership of the time refused to share any of the land they felt should be theirs with Jews.

Personally I find the Israeli Jewish claim on the land to be as powerful as the Palestinian Arab. I think it's right they share.

DancefloorAcrobatics · 29/10/2025 11:11

dairydebris · 29/10/2025 10:43

I do feel the Palestinian grievance is fair though, a lot of Arab identities got their nations around this time, I think it was reasonable for Palestinian Arabs to hope for the same. I still think its reasonable.

The problem has arisen because Palestinian leadership of the time refused to share any of the land they felt should be theirs with Jews.

Personally I find the Israeli Jewish claim on the land to be as powerful as the Palestinian Arab. I think it's right they share.

I agree with you to the extent that both sides had a legitimate claim to the land post WW1 ...
But, I question this for post WW2, with the huge influx of European Jews. The local population had every right to be worried. But foreign rule & politics swept their voices under the carpet. Sadly a safe place for one group doesn't mean the same for another. After all, resources in a desert landscape are scares... and if you have a look at the geological make up of the Gaza strip, you'll understand why both sides will fight for it until the bitter end.

dairydebris · 29/10/2025 11:19

DancefloorAcrobatics · 29/10/2025 11:11

I agree with you to the extent that both sides had a legitimate claim to the land post WW1 ...
But, I question this for post WW2, with the huge influx of European Jews. The local population had every right to be worried. But foreign rule & politics swept their voices under the carpet. Sadly a safe place for one group doesn't mean the same for another. After all, resources in a desert landscape are scares... and if you have a look at the geological make up of the Gaza strip, you'll understand why both sides will fight for it until the bitter end.

I dont think its the geological make up.
I think its Jerusalem.

Those European Jews fleeing genocide and persecution deserved a place too.

I think both sides need leadership who admit the rights of the other for peace to start.

Agree it seems far off now.

Thedawnchorus · 29/10/2025 19:38

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 29/10/2025 00:05

All the incidents you quoted date from long before the ‘Palestinian’ identity and nationalism of today was even created and it was the Palestinians as we know them today who perpetrated what I mentioned in my post.

I raise you the below though if you want to go back that far in history to when Palestinians as a people were just Jews and Arabs:

1920 NEBI MUSA RIOTS
Due to the changing geopolitical landscape of the Middle East (e.g. the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the Sykes-Picot agreement between the United Kingdom and France) and the influx of Jewish immigrants and refugees into Palestine, local Arab leaders began escalating Arab-Jewish tensions. In March of 1920, a widespread demonstration against the Jews of Palestine resulted in the looting of businesses and Arab attacks against Jews. Rioters carried antisemitic slogans, including “Palestine is our land and the Jews are our dogs!” and “de@th to Jews!”
Worried, the Jewish community appealed to the British for protection, but the request was denied. Jewish groups then began arming themselves and practising self-defense. On April 4th, during the Nebi Musa festival, 60,000-70,000 Arabs congregated in Jerusalem and some began attacking Jews. Amin al-Husayni, the British-appointed Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (who later became a Nazi-sympathizer), delivered a virulently antisemitic speech. A riot broke out, with Arabs completely ransacking the Jewish Quarter and desecrating and burning Torah scrolls. Jews were raped and murdered, and the British were extremely slow to respond, only restoring order 4 days later. Christians painted crosses on the outside of their homes so that the rioters would know to spare them. In the end, 4 Jews were killed and 216 were severely injured. 300 Jews had to be evacuated from the Old City. Jews immediately accused the British of complicity, some going so far as to claim that the British had encouraged the Mufti to incite the violence. To make matters worse, a British commission then blamed the Jews for the violence, instead of the Arabs. Frustrated with the British, the Jews formed the Haganah, the precursor to the IDF, to defend themselves.

1929 HEBRON & SAFED MASSACRES
During the British Mandate, Jews had virtually no control of Jewish holy sites, including the Kotel, also known as the Western Wall, the holiest site where they are currently allowed to pray. On Yom Kippur, 1928, the Jews — with the permission of the British — put up a barrier at the Kotel to separate the men and women praying. The barrier was only meant to stay up for 25 hours. Though the Kotel has no significance in Islam, this infuriated the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. He instructed Muslims to disrupt Jewish prayer at the Kotel in any way they could. Rumors spread that the Jews were trying to take control of Temple Mount, which escalated tensions and resulted in antisemitic violence, including a stabbing. In August of 1929, the Haganah offered protection to the Jewish community of Hebron, a mixed Ashkenazi-Sephardi community. The community, largely religious and apolitical, refused, as they believed that the Arabs would only target Zionists. Unfortunately, the opposite happened. The local Arabs offered to spare the Sepharadim of Hebron if they gave up the Ashkenazim; the Sepharadim refused. As such, 67-69 Jews were brutally massacred. The descriptions of the violence are hard to read: a boy’s head was torn off, a 7-year-old was tied to a door and tortured for hours on end, women were raped, many were mutilated, and 7 men were castrated. Out of 20,000 Arabs in the city, only 28 families protected Jews, at great risk to themselves. The survivors were evacuated by the British. Historian Hillel Cohen considers the 1929 Hebron Massacre the true beginning to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, marking the point of no return in the complete disintegration of Jewish-Arab relations. The pogrom united the various Jewish communities of Palestine under the Zionist cause, as they realized that no matter where they stood politically, the Arabs would target them anyway.
Riots and pogroms spread to other cities, including Jerusalem and Safed. Overall, 133 Jews were killed. The extremist Jewish paramilitary groups, the Irgun and Lehi, were formed in response to these massacres.

1936 JAFFA RIOTS
On April 15, 1936, followers of an antisemitic Syrian preacher shot 3 Jewish men, with only one surviving. In response, members of the Irgun shot two Arabs. By the 17th of April, violence between the Jews and the Arabs escalated. On April 19th, the unfounded blood libel that “many Arabs had been killed by Jews” resulted in an Arab attack against the Jews of Jaffa. A mob attacked Jewish businesses, and Jews were killed in the streets.
Jews were mercilessly stabbed and beaten. Jewish businesses were destroyed. The rioting lasted 3 days until it was suppressed by the British military. 9 Jews were killed. 12,000 Jews fled Jaffa; many then had to stay in refugee camps. As a result of the violence, the Jews of Jaffa demanded that their neighborhoods be incorporated into Tel Aviv, which would offer them greater protection. Historians mark this event as the beginning of the 1936-1939 Arab Revolt in Palestine. In May of 1936, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem called for a general strike against the Jews, calling Zionists terrorists and comparing them to Nazis (an odd comparison, considering the Mufti was an actual Nazi sympathizer himself). Throughout the course of the revolt, Arabs killed some 500 Jews.

1938 TIBERIAS POGROM
During the 1936-1939 Arab Revolt, 70 armed Arab rioters entered a Jewish neighborhood in Tiberias and slaughtered 19 Jews, including 11 children. The Jews were virtually protection-less, with only 15 Jewish guards protecting a neighborhood of over 2000 people. Two of the guards were killed during the pogrom. Jewish homes and the local synagogue were set on fire. In one of the homes, a mother and her five children were massacred.
A British representative stated: "It was systematically organized and savagely executed. Of the nineteen Jews killed, including women and children, all save four were stabbed to death. That night and the following day the troops engaged the raiding gangs.” After the attack, the Irgun proposed a joint retaliatory attack with the Haganah. However, the Haganah did not agree, as its policy was to abstain from offensive (vs. defensive) violence. As such, no retaliatory attack took place.
25 days after the pogrom, local Arabs murdered the Jewish mayor of Tiberias.

Here’s more:

www.fondapol.org/en/study/pogroms-in-palestine-before-the-creation-of-the-state-of-israel-1830-1948/

TBF I personally don’t feel much about people who had no relation to me dying almost a century ago.

Despite being British myself, I can acknowledge that the Brits certainly did screw the Jews over to appease the Arabs, who were a much greater risk in terms of violence and violent unrest, at that time.

You’re not seriously saying the Palestinians want to avenge the Brits killed by the Jews too?

You really don’t understand the issue. It’s not about which side committed the most egregious crimes and it’s certainly not a game of me telling you facts while you copy and paste. Israel was born from terrorism. European Zionist terrorists were rewarded for their terrorism by the UK pulling out and leaving them to go on a barbaric genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestine resulting in the Nakba. You talk about why something happened so long ago is relevant. It’s simple. What is happening in Gaza and the West Bank is nothing more than the latest iteration of Plan Dalet which was put in place by Ben-Gurion. Nothing has changed. The only difference now is that Israel’s support by American religious fanatics is at a level where they can literally do anything they want.

BelleHathor · 29/10/2025 20:11

Nothing has changed. The only difference now is that Israel’s support by American religious fanatics is at a level where they can literally do anything they want.

Thankfully evangelical support is reducing rapidly by the day.

There are many Americans leaving the Evangelical church as they realise the lies contained in the Scofield Bible. There are many prominent influencers exposing the preachers who peddle these mistruths.

It's getting so bad that Israeli government is specifically targeting churches for influence operations

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/how-3-2-million-israeli-campaign-will-digitally-target-arizona-christians-anti-palestinian-ads

Thedawnchorus · 29/10/2025 20:34

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BananaPeels · 29/10/2025 20:50

I’m not sure if this has been answered but I have never understood - why is Jordan not occupying Palestinian territory since that country covers the majority of Palestinian land. The bit that Isreal was created out of was the much smaller bit. Surely Jordanian and Palestinian culture is the same and if not, why not?

dairydebris · 29/10/2025 20:57

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Who are you?

From your faux naive post about Hind where you pretended not to know much at all, to the really quite shocking extreme views you've expressed here and above. You believe Israel has no right to exist. You hope for a OSS. You admit that means the erasure of the only Jewish nation in the world. You know a lot about historical wrongs by Israel, but say nothing of the historical wrongs of Palestinian terrorists. You tell actual lies about Israeli society, lies specifically calculated to cause hatred. And here, you've suggested that the rise of Islamophobia and the flag shaggers is an orchestrated campaign by the 'you know who's because nothing could make them look better and in order to make Muslims look worse. A really insidious use of a trope, suggesting 'you know who's are behind the scenes pulling strings and manipulating things to put Muslims down.

You haven't posted on any threads other than CITME.

I find it deeply sinister that there are people posting on here with these kinds of views.

BelleHathor · 29/10/2025 21:07

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