A famine has been declared in Gaza city

[SaltAirAndTheRust]

https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-latest-war-israel-city-ceasefire-hamas-13415481

Meanwhile, up to 80,000 troops are being prepared to start an offensive there. There are no longer any words

How does that comment reference Palestinian prisoners?

”Surrender? Releasing the hostages? At what point do you think it would he prudent for Hamas/Gaza to down weapons and give up?”

Am I missing something?

Taken to a public court and given a fair hearing then sentenced or dismissed accordingly. Not held without access to a fair trial for an indeterminate time.

It doesn't reference Palestinian prisoners.

What it does reveal is that person equates Hamas's hostages - all innocent civilians - with Palestinian prisoners, many of whom are convicted terrorists and murderers.

Its not indeterminate. Administrative detention has a time limit and extra time has to be applied for.

That's awful. Malnutrion in pregnancy can lead to a host of pregnancy complications and increases the risk of maternal death. Then there is the effect on the baby, an increase in neural tube defects, low bith weight and low immunity, premature birth and increases the risk of infant mortality. All of this is bad enough but when you combine it with the fact that 94% of Gazas healthcare facilities have been damaged or destroyed, the restrictions on medicines and fuel and the lack of clean water it is a recipe for absolute disaster.

@Montysmoon Yes - we want to call out Israel for what it is doing wrong. Why is that an issue, especially when innocent people are suffering? I’m sure there is plenty Israel does brilliantly, especially for its Jewish population. I’m sure there are many many positives to living in Israel in ‘normal times’. But why pretend or ignore what’s going on? What is the aim of turning a blind eye? Governments have to be held accountable, don’t they? What issues are we meant to be discussing instead?

As I said, I’m sure there are many positives to being an Israeli citizen but I’m not sure why I should turn a blind eye to things their government does that I don’t agree with. Their role in the famine, their treatment of Palestinian children in jail, their disturbing rhetoric…you should have a problem with Israel for doing it, not for people calling it out.

It doesn't reference Palestinian prisoners. I never said it did so I guess that's what @Montysmoon is missing. It brings up hostages and of course anyone reading more broadly will understand that there are hostages on both sides.

HTH.

Exactly. So many Israelis and non Israeli Jews get this, but not a few people on MN.

Observed by which independent body? Or, as with journalists, are they not allowed in to Israel?

I said last night that it has reached the point of no return and was lambasted for that, but it’s the heartbreaking reality now. Even if aid was allowed to flow into Gaza freely tomorrow, the citizens would suffer refeeding syndrome.

So you agree its not indeterminate, which was my point. By the Israeli authorities I imagine. What external body has jurisdiction over the British judicial system? Obviously full transparency is a good thing everywhere.

We have multiple lines of action should you feel you have been mistreated by the justice system. There are independent bodies.

In Israel, detainees are having their cases heard in secret military courts and there is no transparency.

Do you not see how it’s different?

But it hasnt reached the point of no return. You weren't lambasted. I just pointed out that you were incorrect.

Of course. Where did I say it was the same?

You’ve continually drawn comparisons between the British system and the Israeli system, so one would think you believed they were similar.

But there are not hostages on both sides. Which is back where we started.

Whats the actual point in mangling the language and misrepresenting things like this?

Israel has not taken hostages.

When you write that they have, you will get a bunch of us on here jumping in to point out that Israel has not taken hostages, they are detainees, to accuse you of making up lies about Israel to induce hatred, you'll be accused of drawing false equivalence etc. All this then does is detracts from the purpose of the thread and stops us talking about the real, actual problem of Palestinians being held without charge.

In short, it harms your pro Palestinian viewpoint as much as it builds hatred for Israel. Why do you want to do those things?

Hostages are different to detainees.
Hostages are different to illegal detainees.

Just call a spade a spade and keep to the truth.

The Oxford English Dictionary definition of a hostage is “a person seized or held as security for the fulfilment of a condition.”

The key being “or held”. Israel has repeatedly made it clear that for each Hamas hostage released, they will release detainees.

Thus, they are being held as security for the fulfilment of a condition, and are hostages.

HTH.

Yes it's difficult to see how this won't have effects on Gazas population for years and years to come. It's just one big spiral, you have babies being born now who are incredibly vulnerable and who will need increased medical care for possibly a very long time. Babies with low immunity and special needs being born into a war zone where most of the population is displaced, where there isnt sufficient sanitation, born to mums who are suffering from malnutrion which leads to an inability to breast feed, an increase in postpartum depression and effects their ability to cope with a newborn(nevermind their ability to cope in a war zone with a baby with increased needs).

It's an awful, awful situation with so many complications that really can't be fixed with a few sacks of flour at this point.

I just don’t see how the population recovers. Even if, by some miracle, Israel downs weapons tomorrow, the infrastructure of the country is destroyed. There is nobody able to step in and rebuild, because the population is starved. There are no medical facilities, no educational facilities, no public spaces. It’s a desperately sad situation.

But there are Palestinian people held long term with no charge or sentence.

So we can argue about the wording but ultimately,’ do you think people should be treated as prisoners when they have been charged with no crime? Do you think that reflects well on the Israeli justice system?

A huge number of released ‘prisoners’ have no charges, no sentence, they’re just being held in a cell until the Israeli army are ready to release them. Not hostages, not criminals.

I totally agree that hostages being exchanged for criminals is terrible. I don’t support that beyond it facilitating Israeli hostages return home. But I think people who are in the justice system shouldn’t be held indefinitely without any charge or sentence.

They were not taken for that reason tho. They were taken on suspicion ( tenuous or no ) of having commited a crime, or of intending to commit a crime.

Bad enough, in some instances, but not hostages.

You honestly, hand on heart, believe the Palestinian detainees as a group are the same as the Israeli hostages?

I despair if you do. The hatred is so deep you can't separate fantasy from reality.

Seized OR HELD. The initial intent is not the only aspect that determines whether someone is a hostage or not.

I have never expressed hatred towards the hostages - as I have said many a time, I think the seizure of the innocent Israelis was horrific and I hope they are returned. But that despair and disgust doesn’t erase what Israel are doing in turn?

It doesn't, you're right. People ( and especially children ) being held for lengths of time for very minor crimes or for no crimes at all is morally indefensible. I think its a huge problem for Israel.

But they are still not hostages.

Its literally only the use of the word hostages I'm pushing back on.

But they are hostages when they are being held as a bargaining tool for Israel against Hamas.

Why is that so hard for you to admit? Is it because you’re (rightfully) upset about the Israeli hostages being held by Hamas, and so acknowledging that Israel has also taken hostages would mean that you have to condemn them?