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Conflict in the Middle East
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36
Gloriia · 24/08/2025 09:50

Haven't we had the 'they are hostages' foot stamp or was that another thread?

Op, they aren't hostages. Detained without charge is not being a hostage. When they were detained on suspicion of crimes or whatever hamas hadn't committed atrocities and abducted hundreds of innocent people so they weren't detained with the purpose of being bargaining tools. It of course matters why they were detained in the first place you can't just make things up.

You can of course state that detaining without charge as they do in many countries is not ok but they are not hostages.

Montysmoon · 24/08/2025 09:51

SaltAirAndTheRust · 24/08/2025 09:39

I just don’t see how the population recovers. Even if, by some miracle, Israel downs weapons tomorrow, the infrastructure of the country is destroyed. There is nobody able to step in and rebuild, because the population is starved. There are no medical facilities, no educational facilities, no public spaces. It’s a desperately sad situation.

Hamas leaders are worth some $11bn. They could certainly help rebuild if they wanted to. Of course, they don’t.

SaltAirAndTheRust · 24/08/2025 09:58

Gloriia · 24/08/2025 09:50

Haven't we had the 'they are hostages' foot stamp or was that another thread?

Op, they aren't hostages. Detained without charge is not being a hostage. When they were detained on suspicion of crimes or whatever hamas hadn't committed atrocities and abducted hundreds of innocent people so they weren't detained with the purpose of being bargaining tools. It of course matters why they were detained in the first place you can't just make things up.

You can of course state that detaining without charge as they do in many countries is not ok but they are not hostages.

Edited

The definition of hostage disagrees with you, I’m afraid.

OP posts:
SaltAirAndTheRust · 24/08/2025 09:58

Montysmoon · 24/08/2025 09:51

Hamas leaders are worth some $11bn. They could certainly help rebuild if they wanted to. Of course, they don’t.

Isn’t the entire point that Israel seeks to eradicate Hamas and they will not be around to rebuild?

OP posts:
Gloriia · 24/08/2025 10:01

Montysmoon · 24/08/2025 09:51

Hamas leaders are worth some $11bn. They could certainly help rebuild if they wanted to. Of course, they don’t.

Yes it is extraordinary that posters don't seem to think that hamas bear this responsibility. Did Germany help to rebuild London after the blitz?!

The mega rich leaders in Qatar could also surely lend a hand in rebuilding.

Next time they get billions they need to spend it on the population and not a massive underground network complete with an arsenal of weapons.

Hamas are the bad guys here, will some of you please remember that!

Gloriia · 24/08/2025 10:02

SaltAirAndTheRust · 24/08/2025 09:58

The definition of hostage disagrees with you, I’m afraid.

No need to be afraid when you're wrong.

Hostages are used as bargaining tools. Detained withiut charge is a completely different thing.

UserOfDifferentNames · 24/08/2025 10:03

PinkBobby · 24/08/2025 08:23

And yet they have replaced the U.N.? Because the UN understand that adding guns to humanitarian aid points is going to end badly. Why would they want to set a precedent for the occupying force to control aid and weaponise aid points. So a new company with no actual humanitarian experience was prioritised. They set up just 4 hubs which opened for an average of 11minutes a day in June. Injuries and deaths at aid points have increased.

From my understanding, aid was stopped and a deficit of food was created. This started the Gazans on the slippery slope to famine. This was exacerbated when the 200+ network of UN aid points were replaced with just 4 hubs open for less than an hour. They took months to get up and running (whilst people continued to become malnourished) and now they are praised for providing fewer than one meal a day and not even to all 2m+ people. How is that a success story. The GHF should never have taken the contract and the UN should’ve been left to do its best in a conflict zone.

Yes, the UN system wasn’t perfect. It never is when you have terrorists or rebel fighters around. They have exactly the same issue elsewhere. But adding guns to the situation puts humanitarian aid works at risk because they just become another militarised force in a war zone. There was no systemic evidence of Hamas stealing aid (according to US govt investigation which you’d think would be keen to find some for their allies, Israel) so no chance they could be controlling aid to the point where they were engineering a famine for 2m people.

So in summary, they stopped all aid going in creating a deficit of food, they replaced a huge aid network with a tiny military one (with no prior experience in humanitarian aid) that took months to get to the point where it could deliver less than one meal a day to less than the whole population. Displaced, vulnerable people are expected to walk miles, queue for hours and even then aren’t guaranteed just one meal a day.

If you look into the science/data, a lot of people can be starving before famine is declared because all the criteria have to be met. Withholding all food and then allowing a small amount in will slowly malnourished a population until we get to where are now.

The GHF have not replaced the UN - how could they with only 4 aid sites? Although they are certainly doing a better job in getting free aid to civilians than the UN.

Are the UN no longer working to distribute food? Maybe that explains the hundreds of trucks piled up in Gaza.

I take it you are being deliberately ironic about the UN understanding that adding guns to humanitarian aid is going to end badly.

Who is stealing the majority of UN aid trucks and what are they carrying?

Gloriia · 24/08/2025 10:03

SaltAirAndTheRust · 24/08/2025 09:58

Isn’t the entire point that Israel seeks to eradicate Hamas and they will not be around to rebuild?

I think they can do bank transfers from Qatar.

SharonEllis · 24/08/2025 10:04

SaltAirAndTheRust · 24/08/2025 09:35

The Oxford English Dictionary definition of a hostage is “a person seized or held as security for the fulfilment of a condition.”

The key being “or held”. Israel has repeatedly made it clear that for each Hamas hostage released, they will release detainees.

Thus, they are being held as security for the fulfilment of a condition, and are hostages.

HTH.

No. The hostages were taken by Hamas partly in order to secure concessions from Israel. Various detainees are held by Israrl for a variety of crimes or alleged crimes. They were arrested in the interests of security. Many of them are convicted terrorists. They were NOT arrested in anticipation of Hamas taking terrorists in order to swap for them.

This convetsation has taken a disgusting turn. To equate the hostages in Hamas tunnels with detainees held in Israeli prisons and to equate the motivation of each party is reprehensible.

SaltAirAndTheRust · 24/08/2025 10:04

Gloriia · 24/08/2025 10:01

Yes it is extraordinary that posters don't seem to think that hamas bear this responsibility. Did Germany help to rebuild London after the blitz?!

The mega rich leaders in Qatar could also surely lend a hand in rebuilding.

Next time they get billions they need to spend it on the population and not a massive underground network complete with an arsenal of weapons.

Hamas are the bad guys here, will some of you please remember that!

Oh dear. Go and educate yourself on the division of Germany and the Marshall Plan, which directed $1.4 billion to west Germany to rebuild, as well as directing funds to London to rebuild. Funnily enough, we helped rebuild the country that had been our enemies in the war because we recognised that the citizens of that country didn’t deserve to live in utter devastation.

OP posts:
Gloriia · 24/08/2025 10:05

'Who is stealing the majority of UN aid trucks and what are they carrying?'

Oh apparently because hamas don't take selfies looting the aid and these activist drs and the UN haven't seen it it doesn't happen. Hamas are just misunderstood.

Gloriia · 24/08/2025 10:07

SaltAirAndTheRust · 24/08/2025 10:04

Oh dear. Go and educate yourself on the division of Germany and the Marshall Plan, which directed $1.4 billion to west Germany to rebuild, as well as directing funds to London to rebuild. Funnily enough, we helped rebuild the country that had been our enemies in the war because we recognised that the citizens of that country didn’t deserve to live in utter devastation.

Ok well that is lovely however hamas leaders in Qatar can also contribute, no? It isnt everyone else's responsibility certainly not solely down to Israel.

dairydebris · 24/08/2025 10:07

SaltAirAndTheRust · 24/08/2025 09:45

But they are hostages when they are being held as a bargaining tool for Israel against Hamas.

Why is that so hard for you to admit? Is it because you’re (rightfully) upset about the Israeli hostages being held by Hamas, and so acknowledging that Israel has also taken hostages would mean that you have to condemn them?

They are not being held as a bargaining tool. As I keep pointing out, they are being held on suspicion of committing crimes, and many of them have been convicted of crimes.

It may seem as if they are being used as a bargaining tool, if you subscribe to that Hamas viewpoint. But they were not taken with that specific intent. Unlike the Israeli hostages.

I've no problem condemning Israel where I believe it's right to do so. Why are you questioning why I don't condemn them when I've repeatedly in this thread said that holding people especially children without charge for long amounts of time is morally indefensible?

Its like debating with ghosts here. Your'e saying im refusing to do something ive repeatly, very visibly done. Im vocal in my abhorrence for the extremist right wing element in current Israeli administration, and about the inhumanity of the aid blockage ( yes I'm aware it's not a blockage quite, but in my view it amounts to the same and is again morally indefensible and amounts to crimes against humanity ).

In this instance, im just asking that the word hostage just not be used incorrectly. Again, because it both harms the argument againstst administrative detention and builds hatred for Israel.

Just use the correct terms please?

SaltAirAndTheRust · 24/08/2025 10:08

Gloriia · 24/08/2025 10:07

Ok well that is lovely however hamas leaders in Qatar can also contribute, no? It isnt everyone else's responsibility certainly not solely down to Israel.

But the aim of Israel is to ensure that Hamas is no longer in existence? So how are they expected to rebuild, while also not existing?

OP posts:
SaltAirAndTheRust · 24/08/2025 10:08

dairydebris · 24/08/2025 10:07

They are not being held as a bargaining tool. As I keep pointing out, they are being held on suspicion of committing crimes, and many of them have been convicted of crimes.

It may seem as if they are being used as a bargaining tool, if you subscribe to that Hamas viewpoint. But they were not taken with that specific intent. Unlike the Israeli hostages.

I've no problem condemning Israel where I believe it's right to do so. Why are you questioning why I don't condemn them when I've repeatedly in this thread said that holding people especially children without charge for long amounts of time is morally indefensible?

Its like debating with ghosts here. Your'e saying im refusing to do something ive repeatly, very visibly done. Im vocal in my abhorrence for the extremist right wing element in current Israeli administration, and about the inhumanity of the aid blockage ( yes I'm aware it's not a blockage quite, but in my view it amounts to the same and is again morally indefensible and amounts to crimes against humanity ).

In this instance, im just asking that the word hostage just not be used incorrectly. Again, because it both harms the argument againstst administrative detention and builds hatred for Israel.

Just use the correct terms please?

I am using the correct terms. You’re just refusing to see what they’re doing because it may shake your blind belief in them.

OP posts:
stillhiding1990 · 24/08/2025 10:08

SaltAirAndTheRust · 22/08/2025 18:13

Seeing as this didn’t begin on October 7, why would it end then?

So because they have been behaving barbarically for years they might as well continue? Why didn’t they become a state when offered 3 times in the past? So crazy how people enjoying the freedom of western democracy can keep posting pr spins for jihadists. Wake up

Lolapusht · 24/08/2025 10:09

The contradictions and cognitive dissonance on this thread is quite something.

I don’t even know where to start.

The pp criticising Israel for imprisoning children for throwing rocks/stones and using an article about British children being sentenced for throwing stones, the pp admitting that they consider all Palestinian prisoners as hostages (WTAF?! Even the ones who have committed terror attacks resulting in multiple deaths. In one of the prisoner releases I added up the death toll from about a dozen of the prisoners and there were over 250 casualties but sure, they’re “hostages”), the people telling ‘pro-Israeli’ posters to stop posting while stating they’ll post what they want, posters saying the “debate” (Ha!) is being shut down and they’re not allowed to talk about things even though we’re now on Page 36, posters saying there’s no evidence that Hamas steals aid even though videos are freely available of aid being stolen, people blaming GHF for the UN not delivering aid and so many other things, it’s impossible to keep up.

In no particular order:

The IPC have used a previously unused metric to declare a famine in Gaza City. The 15% figure appears to have been introduced in their Famine Factsheet via an Aug 2025 update ie previous declarations used a 30% figure. The 15% isn’t the official figure, it’s been added via an asterisk in an infographic that isn’t in the previous (2022) version of the same document so there hasn’t been an official change in criteria (so there is no announcement saying they’ve changed things) but they have used a different test.

The size of the area declared is unusual. Only one area is smaller (Sudan at 16 km2) and the next largest size is 10,000km2. Gaza City is about 18km from the nearest GHF site. I have seen recent footage of people leaving some of the aid in the boxes as they didn’t want it. I have also seen footage of people’s stock piles of certain foods (sugar, cooking oil etc) that get good prices in the markets. Markets are operating (selling what should be free aid) and cafes and restaurants are still selling their range of delicious treats. I have seen stockpiles of aid sitting in Gaza waiting to be collected and distributed.

If Hamas actually wore the uniforms they usually save for their revolting hostage release spectacles, the UN might have a better idea of who is stealing their aid. Months ago, they stopped delivering aid because of “security concerns” ie they couldn’t stop their trucks from being pinched by Hamas/local gangs/any of the multitude of terror factions. As the elected governing force in Gaza, Hamas should be policing things but they lost control. They should be keeping Gazans safe from looters/extortionists/thugs but they’re too busy resisting the occupation to bother with that. It is well known that Hamas controls aid. They were threatening Gazans with death if they used the GHF sites. Why? Why would they not want a population on the brink of starvation to get food? They regularly publicly beat and shoot people they say have looted aid. So much for your due process and fair trials, huh?

The GHF sites are providing aid. I don’t agree with all of their methods, but they are getting food out. There have been no shootings within their sites, but there have been on the way to the sites either by Hamas agent provocateurs or by IDF (using live fire as a method of crowd control is daft). The UN refuses to work with them. They have offered to assist the UN, but that offer has been turned down. Why, in a famine situation with a logistic system in place would the UN decline to get aid to the starving people? The GHF are managing to deliver aid which the WFP have been unable to do in Sudan due to militant activity. GHF staff have been murdered by Hamas, but they’re still going.

As we are frequently told, Gaza is small. Why are people starving while there is enough aid in the country? Distribution is the problem. Why is Hamas not doing something about that or are they not in charge any longer? If there is no government in Gaza, who’s going to run the state when it’s recognised? There are numerous sources showing cafes & restaurants selling delicious looking food (I have never seen so much Nutella). How is that possible??? Hamas controls everything so they are permitting these places to operate. Where are they getting their Nutellasupplies from? It’s coming from somewhere, who are they buying it from? But Hamas doesn’t steal aid? The don’t even need to steal it, they just need to control it. If you risk being beaten to death or shot in the legs if you don’t do what Hamas says, they don’t need to steal anything, do they? Think, people.

I can’t even remember the other ridiculous contradictions people have come out with but I’m sure I’ll find some more to mention.

Blimey….

Gloriia · 24/08/2025 10:11

SaltAirAndTheRust · 24/08/2025 10:08

But the aim of Israel is to ensure that Hamas is no longer in existence? So how are they expected to rebuild, while also not existing?

Have you heard of Qatar? Just because the hamas animals in gaza will be destroyed I think the funds and support in Qatar will remain.

SharonEllis · 24/08/2025 10:11

PinkBobby · 24/08/2025 09:39

But there are Palestinian people held long term with no charge or sentence.

So we can argue about the wording but ultimately,’ do you think people should be treated as prisoners when they have been charged with no crime? Do you think that reflects well on the Israeli justice system?

A huge number of released ‘prisoners’ have no charges, no sentence, they’re just being held in a cell until the Israeli army are ready to release them. Not hostages, not criminals.

I totally agree that hostages being exchanged for criminals is terrible. I don’t support that beyond it facilitating Israeli hostages return home. But I think people who are in the justice system shouldn’t be held indefinitely without any charge or sentence.

Edited

But they are not hostages. Its a meaningful legal distinction. And there is something really disturbing and hateful about trying to twist some equivalence out of this situation. Its reprehensible.

Of course people should never be detained without charge long term. That is a meaningful legal standard. Of course it reflects badly on Israel.

Gloriia · 24/08/2025 10:12

'If Hamas actually wore the uniforms they usually save for their revolting hostage release spectacles, the UN might have a better idea of who is stealing their aid.'

It's crazy isn't it. Yeah but they don't wear their green outfits whilst looting so they aren't doing it. The reliable UN said so.

UserOfDifferentNames · 24/08/2025 10:13

SaltAirAndTheRust · 24/08/2025 09:58

The definition of hostage disagrees with you, I’m afraid.

Do you genuinely believe the IDF just randomly round up innocent teenagers so they can detain them just for the hell of it with unlimited resources to do so?

You think detaining people who have committed or are suspected of committing terrorist attacks is the same as terrorists dragging babies and children out of their homes, while committing an actual genocide on their community, and holding them
in tunnels until strangling them to death and mutilating their bodies before parading their coffins in a sick celebration?

There is no reasoning with that is there really?

Zonder · 24/08/2025 10:14

SharonEllis · 24/08/2025 09:33

But there are not hostages on both sides. Which is back where we started.

In your opinion.

Lolapusht · 24/08/2025 10:14

SaltAirAndTheRust · 24/08/2025 09:27

I said last night that it has reached the point of no return and was lambasted for that, but it’s the heartbreaking reality now. Even if aid was allowed to flow into Gaza freely tomorrow, the citizens would suffer refeeding syndrome.

What percentage of the population do you think would suffer from refeeding syndrome?

Do you think the majority of the population is starved to such an extent that this would be an issue?

PinkBobby · 24/08/2025 10:14

Gloriia · 24/08/2025 10:01

Yes it is extraordinary that posters don't seem to think that hamas bear this responsibility. Did Germany help to rebuild London after the blitz?!

The mega rich leaders in Qatar could also surely lend a hand in rebuilding.

Next time they get billions they need to spend it on the population and not a massive underground network complete with an arsenal of weapons.

Hamas are the bad guys here, will some of you please remember that!

Hamas are responsible as the government of Gaza but if Israel is ‘saving Palestinians from Hamas’ with the aim of completely destroying Hamas, then there is a vacuum of power and someone needs to step in. The best people to step in and continue to ‘save’ the Palestinian people are the Israeli’s if long term peace is the aim. Help them rebuild, help them mourn their losses, help the sick recover, help them not be radicalised. I believe this is the best way for Israel to lessen the threat of extremism staying in Gaza. I’m not sure if it’s already too late for that though as there are already a lot of people who have lost everything whilst being told they are not suffering.

Also, Israel has chosen to access the tunnels under Gaza by flattening all the infrastructure. They clear it away with bulldozers and then start investigating the tunnels. Only time will tell whether the scale of destruction was truly necessary. In any case, I think if you choose to flatten a whole country as a way to access underground tunnels (rather than bombing to kill Hamas itself) and then control the flow of aid as Israel has, you have to take responsibility for the aftermath to a certain extent.

This isn’t only Israel’s responsibility but for them to throw their hand up and turn a blind eye will only lead to more hatred, more extremism and more pain for Palestinians and Israelis.

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