Israeli military’s own data indicates civilian death rate of 83% in Gaza war

[GladioliGreen]

Utterly shocking, an astonishingly high civillian death toll. As of May this year only 8,900 fighters were killed.

That apparent ratio of civilians to combatants among the dead is extremely high for modern warfare, even compared with conflicts notorious for indiscriminate killing, including the Syrian and Sudanese civil wars.

www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/aug/21/revealed-israeli-militarys-own-data-indicates-civilian-death-rate-of-83-in-gaza-war

It’s a propaganda war.

Israel is not going to accept willingly that it has disproportionately killed civilians.

But even its own figures don’t make sense.

The only figure that the IDF Spokesperson's Unit and other official Israeli spokespersons repeat is of 20,000 terrorists from Hamas and other organizations who were killed. That figure is not backed up by a list of names or other proof or sourcing.

“According to Spagat, there was an attempt to count the number of names of terrorists that were published by Israel. His team managed to arrive at a few hundred, but it's difficult to compile a list of even a thousand, he says.

Cockerill, too, maintains that that number is not credible. "Based on an overwhelmingly consistent historical pattern," he says, "we know that [in general,] at least twice as many combatants will be wounded as killed. So if Israel says 20,000 have been killed, we assume at least 40,000 have been injured, and it doesn't make sense that Hamas had 60,000 militants."

Cockerill says that Israel is "engineering the combatants figure" by two main means. "One is by redefining civilians who work for the government as combatants, the other is 'kill zones,'" in which everyone who is killed is considered a combatant.

One way or the other, even if we accept the official figure, it still comes down to a ratio of four noncombatants killed for every Hamas militant. That's very far from the statements of Israeli spokespersons, who talk about a 1:1 proportion.”

Out of @50,000 people killed - 17,000(!!!) have been children, @9,500 women, so that leaves about 24,000 men killed. Israeli figures only make sense if basically over 80% of men killed were Hamas. If we take out the elderly- basically every man killed = Hamas= rubbish!

There’s no sensible way to make sense of the figures unless you really dehumanise Palestinians and say that all are Hamas.

archive.ph/fQULe

You don't think it's suss to drop bombs on people when you don't even know who they are? They can tell that a man in an apartment with his family is a militant, don't know who he is, no idea, but they are sure enough to drop a bomb knowing that it will kill multiple civillians? And they are sure enough that they have done this 1000s upon 1000s of times? 15000 bombs dropped by early November 2023, but they've only killed according to you 22000 total. Again who or what are these bombs being dropped on? It's clearly not militants.

I think Israel’s defence in how they have conducted this war may increasingly unravel.

But if you can have Times of Israel uncritically stating 20,000 killed have been Hamas, you can presume people in Israel are not ready to question their country’s conduct of this war.

I can't debate with someone who would say something like your first sentence.

It's so beyond any kind of understanding of what goes on in wars. Do you seriously think in wartime armies only attack people who they are on first name terms with? You can reply if you want (obviously) but I'm not going to waste my time debating with you.

The huge airstrikes that have been dropped on buildings of displaced refugees will show you that they are purposely dropping bombs on civilians.

I'll talk about whatever I like thanks. And it's not a different topic, it's about Israel killing civilians.

Yes, i expect them to only drop bombs on people they are certain are actual targets, especially when they are using huge bombs that kill so many civillians too? Is that not what we have been told they have been doing all along, targeted attacks? Now we are told we are being daft if we expect them to know who they are bombing?

I'm not surprised that you aren't engaging. 15000 'targets' hit according to the IDF themselves by the 10th of November 2023. So even if Israels figure of 22000 is to be believed what or who are these bombs being dropped on because it certainly isn't militants. Especially when you consider that according to other posters they are killing militants in other ways too. It's indefensible really isn't it?

Well I would agree but apparently it's completely ridiculous to expect the IDF to know who they are dropping these enormous bombs on and that's just fine. Drop first, ask questions later.

The IDF aren't saying they weren't targets just that the report only included people whose names were known. So easy to understand.

People will tie themselves in knots trying to defend Israel.

I don’t understand if the IDF are so moral why they can’t be transparent too. Let us know how they have defined and identified Hamas combatants. Perhaps they will publish the full list of Hamas combatants they targeted once the war is over.

Otherwise they we rely on worrying leaks coming out of Israel.
https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/

Yes of all the threads we've had with complex issues discussed this one is the simplest. They knew the names of some of the terrorists killed, not all of them.

If someone was running around with a weapon I certainly wouldn't stop to introduce myself and check if they were on my list of hamas murderers.

Can you imagine ... can I just ask your name? Thanks... it's for our records

Indeed. Maybe a quick selfie just for the Guardian and their readers who are struggling to keep up .

Right but you aren't addressing the bombs they have dropped? Why not?

People will tie themselves in knots trying to defend Israel.

And laugh and joke whilst doing it, like it's all some kind of game to them.

It's obviously very funny. Look at these people here. They think it's hilarious.

(One of those airstrikes that we can't mention)

There is clearly a difference between a killing a Hamas sniper in action versus those Israel presumably identified in advance before dropping dumb bombs on their homes. The latter which presumably resulted in the most civilian casualties?
Of course IDF may have killed snipers / those with weapons with dumb bombs- both seem a bit heavy handed.

I imagine most of the children and adults who are not dead will physically injured or emotionally traumatised.

I can’t imagine what the people in Gaza city are feeling now. How can you safely move a million people?!

It’s completely barbaric.

If people dont move, we will be told that it was their fault as they were warned.

Imagine your night sky being lit with the bombing of people not so far from you.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyr7l0z9edo.amp

These figures are just getting more ridiculous - prior to October 2023 Hamas were reported to have between 20,000 and 30,000 militants. If 22,000 of the dead are Hamas militants they are surely wiped out now, but no Israeli media believe 16-18,000 soldiers remain. You do the maths!

Also as someone pointed out for every person killed by a bomb multiple more end up losing limbs and seriously injured, that would really make it seem unlikely that there would be any Hamas militants about if you believe this figure of 22,000.

Let us all remember too that the figure of 60,000 dead is when a body has been recovered and identified, unidentified bodies and those still buried in the rubble are not included. The real figure of those who died directly by Israeli bombs and guns was thought to well exceed 84,000 several months ago - this was concluded by researchers from University of London, Stanford and Princeton. The economist and Haaretz believe it is now over 100,000. They reached these data points by comparing various lists and found there are a lot of people reported dead by family members who are not in the official death toll.

Those who died of starvation, sepsis, lack of vital medicines like insulin etc... what they refer to as "indirect deaths" are not included in these figures, many estimate that these deaths could bring the official death toll from the bombardment and blockade to 200,000.

A good summation of various studies: https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/the-media-loves-the-experts-until-its-time-to-count-gazas-dead

New Hamas militants are being recruited all the time. They aren’t exactly replacing the older ones as they will be younger and lacking in experience but still, they numbers of Hamas don’t stay static since the start of the war.

Your and @SpaceRaccoon lack of empathy to the undoubtedly high civilian death toll is genuinely chilling.

Why? No one is happy about civilians getting killed but they don’t need to say that on every post. I haven’t seen you expressing any sorrow for the high civilian death rate but it can be assumed we all feel it.

Because they referred to at as a 'non-story' which can only imply civilians don't matter.

@BrooookeDavis don't be ridiculous. You know nothing about me or my capacity for empathy. I was commenting on the quality of journalism. Your apparent lack of interest in establishing the facts is concerning.