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Conflict in the Middle East

Israeli military’s own data indicates civilian death rate of 83% in Gaza war

152 replies

GladioliGreen · 21/08/2025 18:06

Utterly shocking, an astonishingly high civillian death toll. As of May this year only 8,900 fighters were killed.

That apparent ratio of civilians to combatants among the dead is extremely high for modern warfare, even compared with conflicts notorious for indiscriminate killing, including the Syrian and Sudanese civil wars.

www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/aug/21/revealed-israeli-militarys-own-data-indicates-civilian-death-rate-of-83-in-gaza-war

OP posts:
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6
Dangermoo · 22/08/2025 13:34

SharonEllis · 22/08/2025 13:26

Why do you ask if I live in Israel? Do you think Israel diesn't have access to the internet and free media? Are Israeli's incapable of research and critical thinking? What exactly are you implying?

No these sources are not highly respected and haven't been for a long time. Amnesty is a shadow of its former self (I used to be very active in Amnesty, my mother was a branch chair for several decades) and as for the UN, problems with UN agencies have been documented for a while.

It is not true that the only people who question them are Israel. An easily verifiable false statement.That is either a lie or a statement made out of ignorance. I would suggest you should question all sources, its part of critical thinking.

Fantastic post Sharon.

Gloriia · 22/08/2025 14:01

'And blaming all and any sources as biased'

The UN has a 'rapporteur' who has on record said hamas are elected leaders and not all bad. Amnesty has on record said arresting some of the pally action oap intifada was disproportionate. The Drs that some of you seem to admire have had articles published in Aljazeera. I don't make this biased shit up.

They maybe do not speak for everyone in their organisations but it is perhaps a snapshot of their opinions and allegiances.

Martymcfly24 · 22/08/2025 14:43

Gloriia · 22/08/2025 14:01

'And blaming all and any sources as biased'

The UN has a 'rapporteur' who has on record said hamas are elected leaders and not all bad. Amnesty has on record said arresting some of the pally action oap intifada was disproportionate. The Drs that some of you seem to admire have had articles published in Aljazeera. I don't make this biased shit up.

They maybe do not speak for everyone in their organisations but it is perhaps a snapshot of their opinions and allegiances.

Israeli government has on record ministers and IDF ex chiefs saying Palestinians should be starved and murdered and another Nakba was needed.
They do not speak for everyone but it's a snapshot of their opinions.

vivainsomnia · 22/08/2025 14:46

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 22/08/2025 11:52

Pointing out international law isn’t ‘spam’, it’s context.

If the facts feel repetitive, that’s because the violations are repetitive.

Ignoring them doesn’t make them disappear

Saying “Israel has no choice but to hit the population” is exactly what international humanitarian law forbids
They might forbid it but it's what war comes down too. Ukraine and Russia have physical space to protect a larger proportion of civilians. Many Ukrainians had options to live the war zone.

2/3rd killed in WW2 were civilians, mainly in occupied countries where civilians are nowhere else to go.

There are laws that makes killing anyone a crime. That doesn't stop crimes occurring every days.

It IS the nature of warfare. The only way to avoid civilians being the casualties of political and religious ballshit is for wars not to be started in the first place.

Twiglets1 · 22/08/2025 15:30

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 22/08/2025 13:27

When I’ve asked people previously what sources they do consider reliable they’ve either refused to answer my question or they’ve said the IDF 🤷‍♀️

Nonsense. Speaking for myself, I've said that the sources I consider fairly reliable (still with bias but all sources seem to have some bias) are the BBC, the Times of Israel & The Telegraph.

I've also clearly stated that I believe individual members of the IDF have lied on occasion, for example re the ambulances that they tried to cover up.

I haven't heard anyone say the IDF is a completely reliable source - more so than Hamas though or Hamas affiliated sources, in my opinion.

SharonEllis · 22/08/2025 15:35

Twiglets1 · 22/08/2025 15:30

Nonsense. Speaking for myself, I've said that the sources I consider fairly reliable (still with bias but all sources seem to have some bias) are the BBC, the Times of Israel & The Telegraph.

I've also clearly stated that I believe individual members of the IDF have lied on occasion, for example re the ambulances that they tried to cover up.

I haven't heard anyone say the IDF is a completely reliable source - more so than Hamas though or Hamas affiliated sources, in my opinion.

Facts again, tut tut.

The IDF is a heavily scrutinised source inside and outside Israel.

notimagain · 22/08/2025 15:53

Personally I'd work on the basis ATM there are zero/no/nada completely reliable sources...not Al Jazaerra, CNN, BBC, UN, e
MSF, Guardian, etc etc...

There are simply too many vested, political interests in play on all sides.

Best you can do is read across a range of sources and above all be mindful of what a p p said way back, it will take years if not decades to get anything like a true picture of what went on and casualty figures.

SharonEllis · 22/08/2025 16:10

notimagain · 22/08/2025 15:53

Personally I'd work on the basis ATM there are zero/no/nada completely reliable sources...not Al Jazaerra, CNN, BBC, UN, e
MSF, Guardian, etc etc...

There are simply too many vested, political interests in play on all sides.

Best you can do is read across a range of sources and above all be mindful of what a p p said way back, it will take years if not decades to get anything like a true picture of what went on and casualty figures.

Yes I work on the basis that you have to read a lot of sources and be very aware of their biases.

RandomWordsThrownTogether · 22/08/2025 16:15

Israel has officially caused a famine now. For those who were arguing on previous threads that it wasn’t actually a famine, it has officially reached the requisite number of deaths due to malnutrition to be declared as such.

Congratulations Israel, you win another big War Crimes sticker! Hilariously if the ones who want to create a “Greater Israel” are right and there is a God, they are going to have to explain this to him some day. First they will face prosecution for genocide but that won’t bring back the dead.

Twiglets1 · 22/08/2025 16:19

notimagain · 22/08/2025 15:53

Personally I'd work on the basis ATM there are zero/no/nada completely reliable sources...not Al Jazaerra, CNN, BBC, UN, e
MSF, Guardian, etc etc...

There are simply too many vested, political interests in play on all sides.

Best you can do is read across a range of sources and above all be mindful of what a p p said way back, it will take years if not decades to get anything like a true picture of what went on and casualty figures.

I would say some sources at least make the effort to mention the other point of view occasionally (like the sources I mention above) even if they seem biased.

Al Jazeera don't even pretend to be neutral (UK) and the Arabic site is even more anti Israel/pro Hamas apparently.

I agree though - best to read a wide range of sources which is why I also take a look at what the Guardian, Al Jazeera etc are saying.

Timeforabitofpeace · 22/08/2025 16:20

It has. And it’s made the world less safe, because a new low of what can be considered acceptable has been drawn.

Twiglets1 · 22/08/2025 16:21

RandomWordsThrownTogether · 22/08/2025 16:15

Israel has officially caused a famine now. For those who were arguing on previous threads that it wasn’t actually a famine, it has officially reached the requisite number of deaths due to malnutrition to be declared as such.

Congratulations Israel, you win another big War Crimes sticker! Hilariously if the ones who want to create a “Greater Israel” are right and there is a God, they are going to have to explain this to him some day. First they will face prosecution for genocide but that won’t bring back the dead.

Oh please don't bring God into this.

How are Hamas going to explain to Him the people they murdered/tortured/raped? What about the Palestinians who celebrated it... they aint going to Heaven in the extremely unlikely event that it exists.

Stripes56 · 22/08/2025 16:22

The other tactic is the derail the thread so we are talking about whether the guardian is a reliable source or not.

The guardian is not the only source for disproportionality of Israel’s killing in Gaza.

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 22/08/2025 16:26

Twiglets1 · 22/08/2025 15:30

Nonsense. Speaking for myself, I've said that the sources I consider fairly reliable (still with bias but all sources seem to have some bias) are the BBC, the Times of Israel & The Telegraph.

I've also clearly stated that I believe individual members of the IDF have lied on occasion, for example re the ambulances that they tried to cover up.

I haven't heard anyone say the IDF is a completely reliable source - more so than Hamas though or Hamas affiliated sources, in my opinion.

I wasn’t talking about you- I was actually going to @ you as you’re the only one who gave a balanced insight into sources and actually I’d say you are far more balanced.

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 22/08/2025 16:27

notimagain · 22/08/2025 15:53

Personally I'd work on the basis ATM there are zero/no/nada completely reliable sources...not Al Jazaerra, CNN, BBC, UN, e
MSF, Guardian, etc etc...

There are simply too many vested, political interests in play on all sides.

Best you can do is read across a range of sources and above all be mindful of what a p p said way back, it will take years if not decades to get anything like a true picture of what went on and casualty figures.

Yes, I’m sure these threads will be very interesting to read in a few years.

notimagain · 22/08/2025 16:29

@Stripes56

The other tactic is the derail the thread so we are talking about whether the guardian is a reliable source or not.

But since the OP is the direct result of a Guardian piece this AM that's hardly a derail, that's fundamental.to the whole thread.

dairydebris · 22/08/2025 16:37

Timeforabitofpeace · 22/08/2025 16:20

It has. And it’s made the world less safe, because a new low of what can be considered acceptable has been drawn.

If it helps you at all, I've recently been re reading about Bosnia and I can guarantee you a new low has not been reached.

See also, most other wars.

It"s just more of the same. Humans doing shit things to each other.

I'm not here to defend Israel right now, just here to inject a little reality into the thread.

Stripes56 · 22/08/2025 16:56

notimagain · 22/08/2025 16:29

@Stripes56

The other tactic is the derail the thread so we are talking about whether the guardian is a reliable source or not.

But since the OP is the direct result of a Guardian piece this AM that's hardly a derail, that's fundamental.to the whole thread.

But what is it in the guardian article people don’t agree with?

Lets have an considered discussion about its contents without saying - well it’s the guardian so I’m not going to engage.

The research was also done in conjunction with a Hebrew paper local call. Here’s some translation of the link:

https://www.mekomit.co.il/חשיפה-מנתוני-אמן-עולה-כי-83-מההרוגים-בעז/

Several intelligence sources said that the database in Military Intelligence is considered the authoritative and only source in the military regarding the number of fighters killed. Each soldier on the list marked as killed is assigned a specific intelligence report justifying the determination, usually based on Hamas and Jihad documents seized by the military. An official military source confirmed that this database is the only reliable list the military holds of Hamas and Islamic Jihad operatives killed in Gaza, and that other data released by military and political sources was based on "estimates." The source did not dispute the accuracy of the data held by Sicha Mekomit.
As of mid-May 2025, Military Intelligence’s database recorded 7,330 Hamas and Islamic Jihad members killed, and another 1,570 as "likely" killed, totaling 8,900 military operatives. If we compare this total to the casualty figures from the Palestinian Ministry of Health, which stood at 52,928 deaths at that time, we find that the percentage of fighters among the dead is 17%, while 83% are civilians. If we exclude the "likely" deaths, the percentage of fighters among the dead would be around 14%, and the percentage of civilians about 86%.
The figure of more than 80% civilians among all casualties is also consistent with a check conducted by The Hottest Place in Hell regarding the casualty figures from March to May of this year. The military told the site that it had killed 500 fighters since March, while the Palestinian Ministry of Health reported 2,780 deaths in Gaza during the same period.
Mohammed Shahada, a guest researcher on human rights at the European Council on Foreign Relations and a native of Gaza, told Sicha Mekomit that in December 2024, he heard from Hamas and Jihad representatives that 6,500 people had been killed from both the military and political arms combined. Given that the Military Intelligence database is from May 2025, about six months later, it seems the figures Shahada heard are close to those held by the military.
"The percentage of civilian deaths in Gaza is exceptionally high, especially because it has lasted for so long," said Teresa Peterson from the Uppsala Conflict Data Program, which has been tracking civilian casualties worldwide since 1989. According to her, higher civilian percentages have been recorded in the Rwandan Genocide or in isolated events like the Srebrenica massacre (though not in the entire Bosnian War) and the Russian siege of Mariupol in 2022.

In “Israel Hayom,” it was reported that during a discussion in the Foreign and Defense Committee in April 2024, committee members doubted the reliability of the numbers the military presented regarding Hamas and Jihad militants it had killed. Some committee members checked the figures within the military's internal systems and discovered that the number in those records was significantly lower than the figure the military presented. According to the report, the military artificially inflated the number of Hamas casualties "to create a 2:1 ratio" between civilians and military operatives.
In an attempt to argue that the percentage of fighters among Palestinian casualties is high, some relied on a statistic quoted in Epstein's research—about 44% of those killed in the Ministry of Health lists in Gaza are men aged 18 to 59, meaning more than their proportion of the population. However, research from the Oslo Peace Studies Center showed that in wars, men have a higher likelihood of being killed than women, even if they do not carry weapons. An example of this was seen in recent months, when nearly 2,000 Palestinians were killed around the GHF centers in Gaza, according to Gaza's Ministry of Health. Videos filmed at these sites clearly show that most of the casualties at the distribution centers were unarmed young men who went to get food for their families.
Throughout the war, estimates regarding the number of casualties publicly presented by Israeli officials fluctuated, raising significant doubts about their reliability, as described by Idan Lando on his blog. Lando quotes a security official who, a month after the start of the war, stated that there were 20,000 deaths in Gaza, most of them military operatives—meaning over 10,000 killed from the military factions. However, by the end of 2023, the number suddenly dropped: the Southern Command Chief then estimated that the military had killed 7,864 military operatives.
The mysterious fluctuations in the numbers continued: at the end of February 2024, an IDF spokesperson claimed that more than 13,000 Hamas operatives had been killed, but a week later, the military spoke of 12,000 Hamas casualties, meaning that 1,000 operatives "came back to life." In August 2024, the military reported 17,000 Hamas casualties, but by October 2024, two months later, the number shrank to 14,000 operatives killed "with high probability."
The ratio between armed and unarmed casualties in global conflicts is difficult to calculate due to the lack of precise data and the challenge of defining who counts as a military operative. However, a rate of more than 80% civilian casualties, as indicated by the data we have, is extremely high. In the war against ISIS in Iraq and Syria, the proportion of civilians among total casualties ranged from 10% to 28%. In the battle to liberate Mosul from ISIS, which is often compared to the war in Gaza, the percentage of civilians among casualties ranged from 42% to 60%. In the U.S. war in Afghanistan, estimates suggest that 28% of casualties were civilians. In the Bosnian Civil War, which killed about 97,000 people and is considered one of the deadliest conflicts since World War II, research conducted by an independent institute in Sarajevo found that the proportion of civilians among the casualties stood at about 40%.

The discussion about the "correct" ratio between civilian casualties and casualties from military factions is problematic because it is often used as a justification for targeted harm to civilians. For this reason, international law examines the principle of "proportionality" in each case separately. In November 2023, an investigation by Sicha Mekomit revealed that the military authorized the killing of over one hundred Palestinians to target a senior Hamas commander. Regardless of the overall ratio between "civilians" and "combatants," it does not justify harming civilians on such a large scale as indicated by these cases and many others.
The intention for indiscriminate killing is clearly reflected in the words of Aaron Haliva, the head of Military Intelligence at the beginning of the war, who said in a recording published on News 12: "The fact that there are already 50,000 dead in Gaza is necessary and required for future generations… For every person who died on October 7, 50 Palestinians should die. It doesn't matter now if they are children… they need a regular Nakba to feel the price." Sharon Halevi, the wife of the Chief of Staff Herzl Halevi, recently shared that her husband left their home on the morning of October 7, "long before seven in the morning," kissed the mezuzah, and said to her: "Gaza will be destroyed."
It is clear that only after the end of the war will it be possible to independently, and not under constant shelling, examine the number of casualties and their identities, and thus arrive at more accurate data regarding the percentage of civilians among the dead. But the database we are publishing here indicates that the true percentage of civilians among the casualties in Gaza is much higher than the picture Israel has presented to itself and the world.

חשיפה: מנתוני אמ"ן עולה כי 83% מההרוגים בעזה הם אזרחים - שיחה מקומית

מסד נתונים פנימי של אמ"ן מעלה שמספר הלוחמים של חמאס וג'יהאד אסלאמי שישראל הרגה בעזה מאז 7 באוקטובר נמוך ביותר מחצי מהנתונים בנושא שפרסמו הצבא וגורמים מדיניים רשמיים. אם משווים את הנתונים במסד של אמ"ן לנתוני ההרוגים של משרד הבריאות הפלסטיני עולה ששיעור...

https://www.mekomit.co.il/%D7%97%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%94-%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%9F-%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%94-%D7%9B%D7%99-83-%D7%9E%D7%94%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%92%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%96/

Timeforabitofpeace · 22/08/2025 17:02

BBC says that famine is finally confirmed in Gaza. That’s been a long time coming. However, the gaslighters of the Israel media deny this is the case. Gaslighting has been the term used on here towards many of us defending the starving of Gaza. Actually this is what gaslighting looks like. It’s where everyone says starvation is happening, we can all SEE it’s happening, we see that people are dying and yet Isreal still behaves like Russia at its worse, with the “nothing to see here” approach. Just wicked.

notimagain · 22/08/2025 17:08

But what is it in the guardian article people don’t agree with?

Amongst it's many problems is the way it implies that civilian / not on the list = automatically non-combatant.

Gloriia · 22/08/2025 17:28

Timeforabitofpeace · 22/08/2025 17:02

BBC says that famine is finally confirmed in Gaza. That’s been a long time coming. However, the gaslighters of the Israel media deny this is the case. Gaslighting has been the term used on here towards many of us defending the starving of Gaza. Actually this is what gaslighting looks like. It’s where everyone says starvation is happening, we can all SEE it’s happening, we see that people are dying and yet Isreal still behaves like Russia at its worse, with the “nothing to see here” approach. Just wicked.

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2025/08/13/global-food-insecurity-scale-was-eased-in-order-to-declare-famine-in-gaza/

IPC change their methodology for declaring famine in gaza. I'm shocked.

Look no one is 'gaslighting' no-one barring hamas is 'wicked'.

The problem here is the terrorists and these organisations jumping on their bandwagon.

Disclaimer I don't doubt they are suffering in gaza but i bet those in severe famine stricken places would roll they eyes at this UN declared famine.

Once again, hamas in their tunnels feasting on aid pissing themselves laughing at the west.

Stripes56 · 22/08/2025 17:29

notimagain · 22/08/2025 17:08

But what is it in the guardian article people don’t agree with?

Amongst it's many problems is the way it implies that civilian / not on the list = automatically non-combatant.

Ok Let’s look at this further
Israel appears to accept that the Hamas figure for direct deaths is correct (they don’t include people under rubble, but let’s put that to one side).

Are you ok with overall estimation of direct deaths?

notimagain · 22/08/2025 17:39

Stripes56 · 22/08/2025 17:29

Ok Let’s look at this further
Israel appears to accept that the Hamas figure for direct deaths is correct (they don’t include people under rubble, but let’s put that to one side).

Are you ok with overall estimation of direct deaths?

Regardless of the figures and by way of return do you accept that the Guardian headline was missleading?

Stripes56 · 22/08/2025 17:53

notimagain · 22/08/2025 17:39

Regardless of the figures and by way of return do you accept that the Guardian headline was missleading?

We can’t work out if misleading till we look at the figures that IDF is proposing versus those in the headline- which starts with initial acceptance of Hamas direct deaths.

Timeforabitofpeace · 22/08/2025 18:06

@dairydebrisyou would say that. If it helps you at all.