Many pro-Palestinians DO actually support Hamas

[ConscientiousObserver]

There I said it.

Obviously they won’t come out and admit it, for fear of exposing themselves as supporters of evil, and also because they worry that they may be traced as it is supposedly illegal to support Hamas, as a proscribed terrorist group.

The evidence is all there -

The blind belief in the blatant Hamas propaganda which defies sense and logic.

The demonising descriptive language used to describe Israel.

The insistence that a war Israel didn’t start justifies Israeli and Jewish people around the work being persecuted, attacked and even murdered.

The protests against Israel but not Hamas who actually started the war.

The complete lack of interest or outrage in the Israeli hostages who actually included children and and a baby.

The calls for immediate ceasefire since the war started with no calls for Hamas to surrender.

The complete lack of accountability for Hamas and Palestinians in general.

I cannot fathom that anyone with a sane mind would support evil, barbaric murderers and rapists who also actively want to get their own civilians killed, and kill them themselves, so can we assume that for these people, their hatred of Israel and the Jewish people is greater than their care for human life as a whole.

A genuine question.

Oh, so we’re deflecting now- justifying the starvation and siege of nearly a million children because decades ago, a Palestinian group committed airplane hijackings?

Let me be clear: I don’t justify any act of terrorism. I’ve repeatedly condemned October 7th, Hamas, and all violence against civilians. But the phrase “public grievances” doesn’t quite cut it, does it? You’re referencing historical acts of desperation rooted in statelessness, exile, and occupation and using that to frame today’s mass civilian suffering as somehow deserved.

Your real issue seems to be that Palestinians are now able to speak, to share their reality without it being filtered. That their voices, long silenced, are finally being heard.

And your response to that is deflection, rather than horror at what they’re enduring. what exactly is it you’re defending?

So everything is Israel’s fault

I mean Israel has no control over Egypt’s border but sure, it’s their fault Egypt doesn’t open it.

Can I ask - where do you get this information? What’s your source?

Hamas has armed fighters but isn’t a national army of a recognized state

Because it’s a terrorist group.

You can’t be both at the same time.

It’s important to recognise the difference between a state’s official military- which operates under internationally recognised laws and accountability- and a non-state militant group like Hamas.

A terrorist group like Hamas

Fixed it for you.

Did you spot any Jewish ones perchance?

Oh the irony of your post.

Your real issue seems to be that Palestinians are now able to speak, to share their reality without it being filtered. That their voices, long silenced, are finally being heard.

I'm sincerely concerned that that's all you think is happening here.

Not superb, they just have a number of enthusiastic amplifiers.

What is it with pro-Palestinians in that the moment you try and have a measured conversation about why we are where we are, they churn out punchy statement about killing babies?

Why can’t they just have a sensible two way conversation about the conflict?

I have yet to see a thread started by a "pro Palestinian" questioning why Hamas chose to put its people in harm's way by committing a pogrom in Israel.
Or one questioning how so many Hamas soldiers , hale and hearty were to be found in the last round of performative hostage release.....when so many Gazans were being starved " by Israel".
Or why Hamas, obviously having lost the war it started will not unconditionally surrender , but continues to carry on like a valid shot caller and to the point that it has now got Egypt on its shitlist.
All instead of enabling the beginning of the end to its people's immediate physical suffering.

I have yet to see a thread started by a " pro Palestinian" of superior intelligence questioning why in a war consisting of two sides, only one side is being demanded of to facilitate the end of said war.

Or starting a thread to ask if the " anti Zionism" is stronger than the " pro Palestinian" in the " pro Palestine/nian discourse and if the " anti Zionism" is not getting in the way of material advocacy on behalf of Gazans now.
I have seen a lot of emotionalism, trying to centre Gaza in everybody's life and mind to the expected ignoring of anything else in order qualify as a good person and if one is not Gazan, one does not qualify as being violated, bullied or suffering.
Neither have I seen threads in the name of peace loving " pro Palestinians" who hate " imperialism/racism/colonialism" and all that " Israel represents" started about Arab or Islamic colonialism , how Russia has been intertwined with "Palestinian" advocacy/terror since the inception of modern Israel as part of the Cold war and funded Arafat at the same time as Che Guevara. And funds Hamas via Iran today.
Or the fact that being anti Arab is cultural in the non Arab Middle East and Iranian shenanigans in the Mediterranean/Gulf Middle Eastern states is all about Islamism and anti Semitism....the Palestinians are just a collateral damage red herring...to Iran and Hamas.
If one is truly pro Palestinian instead of " anti Zionist" that train of thought of linear thinking would have easily produced threads of this skin deep knowledge/ interest nature along with the usual " US/ Israel BAD" threads from the same quarter.

Are the "Pro Palestinians" on Mumsnet True To This or New To This?

Because right about now, I mostly see a bunch of empty barrels making the most noise in order to try and disguise something inside so strong that they do not want to attend to or reveal outside of fellow travellers.
And if it is not that, then if I was Gazan and not pro Hamas or anti Semitic , I would wonder what a bunch of under thinking foreigners think that there mutual gyrating could do for me.

I can understand being unable to see past the distress caused by having your social media flooded constantly with images of dead and dying babies and children, especially when this is always presented as "Look what Israel is doing."

It must also be difficult to imagine what life under Hamas is like. There are a lot of "voices, long silenced" (and not by Israel) that will never see the light of day.

One day, the role of social media algorithms in public perceptions of this conflict will become more visible. Maybe I'm being ridiculous, but I can't help noticing that the relentless influx of spamming threads on CITME has subsided quite a lot since Haniyeh and Sinwar were wiped out.

The truly scary thing about Hamas propaganda is that they have proved there is nothing they can do that is so bad it will lose them support in the west. Film yourselves gleefully beheading a Thai man with a garden hoe? Hold a fake funeral ceremony for a baby and a toddler you kidnapped and murdered? Film a young man you have kidnapped and slowly starved being made to dig his own grave? Yep, all fine. You are the future the west wants for itself. At least you didn't do something truly evil like make an ad with a play on the words 'genes' and 'jeans.'

The argument about whether or not Hamas is an army is just another take on this being big, bad Israel crushing some tiny, powerless insurgency, instead of Israel being up against Hamas and the PA and Hezbollah and the Houthis and Yemen and Qatar and Syria and Russia and China and whatever other Muslim Brotherhood strongholds or corrupt autocracies are against it.

I think that’s what makes it superb. They’ve tapped into several strands of current Western thinking (about racism, colonialism, and oppressor/oppressed narratives) while also revitalising deeply embedded antisemitic themes for a new audience who, mostly having been born after WWII, don’t see them for what they are.

I’m sure Hamas and Iran understand how Western academia and political tribal allegiances work. I’d be surprised if they hadn’t been paying careful attention to transgender ideology’s tremendous success in mainstream ‘left’ thinking and the success of the extreme element of the trans rights movement in getting apparently intelligent people to parrot dangerous lies in the name of ‘compassion’.

Pro-Palestinians see themselves as humanitarian, progressive and compassionate, they are wedded to that view of themselves, and they suffer cognitive dissonance when something challenges it, and that’s exactly what Hamas’s propaganda plays on.

Some do. The greater number are driven by forced teaming from what I've seen.

That’s interesting @quantumbutterfly, can you explain a bit more?

Pro-Palestinians see themselves as humanitarian, progressive and compassionate, they are wedded to that view of themselves, and they suffer cognitive dissonance when something challenges it, and that’s exactly what Hamas’s propaganda plays on.

I actually think you can say similar things about Pro-Isreal camp.

It's like people have lost the ability to see nuance and think critically and instead have throw blind support towards their chosen side, ignoring its wrong-doings.

All the while Palestinians and Isreali hostages bear the brunt by experiencing unimaginable suffering.

The world really needs to stop acting as if this is a simple goodies and baddies situation and hold perpetrators of evil actions on both side to account if there is ever going to be lasting peace. Alas, I feel we are a long way away from that.

I’m not desperately trying to do anything. Merely trying to understand what you are saying given you have likened Hamas to a child being burned alive by their parent, and suggested that they are somehow “lesser” compared to Israel.

To quote @EsmaCannonball

The truly scary thing about Hamas propaganda is that they have proved there is nothing they can do that is so bad it will lose them support in the west. Film yourselves gleefully beheading a Thai man with a garden hoe? Hold a fake funeral ceremony for a baby and a toddler you kidnapped and murdered? Film a young man you have kidnapped and slowly starved being made to dig his own grave? Yep, all fine.

In this context, the distinction between a state military group and a militant group matters, how?

What difference does that distinction make?

Why is it so important to you that we must recognise that Hamas is not bound by International law.

Does that somehow make any of the above “lesser” in some way?

As you said “accountability matters”. Do you apply that to everyone. Or only those who are bound by International law?

I don’t understand what you are trying to say.

It’s not that simple, though. We/the West are not the world’s police, judge and jury. And again, I think you miss the point that radical Islamists don’t want peace or an end to the suffering.

I have to say I don’t believe it’s Hamas themselves who have generated this current propaganda machine. I think they are just the foot soldiers of something more powerful and intelligent.

Obviously Iran and Qatar, maybe even Western.

Netanyahu wasn’t liked in some quarters before Oct 7th (less now - maybe they thought he’d resign?), and it was confirmed that he wasn’t informed of the memo detailing suspicious activity before the attack despite accusations that he deliberately let Oct 7th happen.

www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahus-office-admits-pms-staff-got-didnt-pass-on-alert-hours-before-oct-7-attack/amp/

That's kind of my point. It's not simple. I don't think either radical Islamists or Netanyahu's government wants peace or an end to suffering.

"There are no uninvolved in Gaza" - Israeli rabbi Ronen Shaulov has called for every child in Gaza to be starved to death this week, saying that "not a trace can remain" of Gaza and there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians.

Ronen Shaulov is popular in Israel with a large social media following.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DM5fONlo7sW/?img_index=1&igsh=MXIzeWlnMHoyeXJ2Yg==

Would welcome your thoughts on this.

Good point. I mentioned Iran - but you’re right it’s not just Hamas, of course.

I’m not particularly conspiracy-minded but I agree that there is a bigger picture.

The world really needs to stop acting as if this is a simple goodies and baddies situation and hold perpetrators of evil actions on both side to account if there is ever going to be lasting peace. Alas, I feel we are a long way away from that

If you believe neither side wants an end to the suffering, what do you think ‘the world’ can do about it?

I’m sorry but I think your take is naive and simplistic.

How kind of you to say....

What's your take?
I would say uncritical support for either side is about as simplistic as things can't get.