France recognises Palestine

[PaxAeterna]

A big deal.
Macron said

The urgent thing today is that the war in Gaza stops and the civil population is saved

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2025/07/24/macron-anuncia-que-franca-ira-reconhecer-estado-da-palestina

Yes, that is what it seems to come down to. Completely bizarre.

Freedom to leave the country
Freedom to build a house.
Freedom to work.
Freedom to study.
Freedom to work their own land.
Freedom to fish far out waters

We do have very different ideas of what freedom means.

My fascination is more that you don't see how "oh, but, in a France style state they should be more concerned with whether the gay club is semi-secret than whether it takes six hours through various checkpoints to get to one." (And, yes, Palestine has gay clubs. Not quite as openly as Tel Aviv does but they exist.)

Also, for the record: gay people cannot get married in Israel either. Nor can mixed religious couples. And if an Israeli marries a Palestinian from Gaza or the West Bank they cannot bring their spouse to Israel either.

Nor, for that matter, can I get married in Israel - because I'm an atheist. There's a solid reason why Cyprus has a veritable cottage industry in performing marriages for couples whom Israel recognises if married abroad but won't perform itself.

Literally everyone agrees that there is a democratic deficit in Palestine. But also: merely voting isn't worth that much if the choice is between "acceptance of Israeli dominance" and "getting lawn mowed".

In 1948, five Arab armies invaded the new State of Israel, rejecting the UN partition and launching a war with the open goal of destroying it. Jews and Arabs were at war. Jews did not start the war or want the war and everyone thought they'd lose it.

Yes, Zionist militias (like Irgun and Lehi) committed violent acts - as did Arab militias, including massacres of Jewish civilians in places like Kfar Etzion and Hadassah Medical Convoy. I think Arab terrorism on Jews went on for about 18 years before they retaliated actually.

As for biological warfare, there are unproven allegations debated by historians - but no conclusive evidence. Meanwhile, Arab forces besieged Jerusalem, cutting off water and food to 100,000 Jewish civilians.

The Absentees' Property Law passed in 1950 allowed the new Israeli state to take control of property belonging to those who had fled during the war. It wasn’t random theft, it was consistent with what many countries have done post-conflict, including Arab countries that expelled all Jews and seized all their property without compensation.

What you're ignoring is that in the West Bank, which was seized and illegally annexed by Jordan, every single Jewish home and community was destroyed -including ancient ones in Hebron, Gush Etzion, and the Old City of Jerusalem.

Over 1,500 Jews were expelled from the Jewish Quarter in Jerusalem. Synagogues were burned, homes were seized, and Jews were barred from visiting their holiest sites for 19 years.

In Gaza, the Jewish community of Kfar Darom was attacked and wiped out. All Jewish property was taken over by Egyptian authorities or local Arabs.

So while you're accusing Israel of seizing homes, remember this: Jewish homes and entire communities were wiped out in Arab-controlled territories, with zero right of return, zero compensation, and zero outrage from the world.

I also think it’s very one sided of some posters to not consider what is happening in the occupied territories. The face is that the Israeli government and legal system is alllowing the continued extension into the West Bank. There is very real concern that this is going to impact on a future 2ss.

It’s like saying - look at us here, see Tel Aviv for example, with our liberal western facing values Don’t look over there, in the West Bank - that’s just a few odd ball settlers. I wonder if they think about the 200 plus children killed there since 7/10?

RAMALLAH, 7 February 2025 - Almost half of all Palestinian children killed by Israeli forces or settlers in the occupied West Bank since records began were killed in just the past two years, highlighting an intensification of violence which has left children and families living under constant fear, said Save the Children.* *

https://www.savethechildren.net/news/west-bank-nearly-half-all-child-killings-records-began-happened-last-two-years

Two wrongs don't make a right.
All of those incidents you mentioned were so wrong. There were many groups of Arab militias.
So was the Israeli state seizing houses from the rightful owners.
I just said id mention it because there seems to be a lot of one sided history in your posts .

And Operation Castle Thy Bread has been proven by documents.

Starmer is responding to the pressure put into him by his MPs who are presumably responding to their constituents’ concerns (we do care about pot holes and other local issues too).

He’s called an emergency meeting of his MPs to discuss situation in Gaza and has been requested to speak to Trump.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jul/27/keir-starmer-to-recall-cabinet-for-emergency-meeting-on-gaza-crisis

Interesting, no mention of the bombing of the King David Hotel, where Jewish terrorists dressed as "Arabs" and bombed thr hotel killing 96 people in 1946 and other terrorist acts.

Funny how the Nakba which proceeded 1948 is forgotten. The unimaginable cruel acts carried our during that ethnic cleansing:
https://mondoweiss.net/2024/04/the-deir-yassin-massacre-reminds-us-every-zionist-accusation-is-a-confession/
[Trigger warning - distressing details of brutality]

"Earlier that morning, armed members of Zionist terrorist militias, the Stern Gang and the Irgun Zvai Leumi, invaded the pastoral village and slaughtered anyone with a beating pulse. They beheaded babies, burned a child alive in the communal oven, and committed acts of sexual assault and systematic rape.

Zionist terrorists slaughtered nearly 254 villagers. "

What we have is an attempt to rewrite history in order to whitewash the theft and violence and frame this conflict in that light.

Agree @BelleHathor once again history is being rewritten by the victors. There is no doubt there was violence committed by both militias but this is often ignored.

It's also because Jeremy Corbyn's new party has already been joined by 500'000 people in 3 days. A political tsunami that will spilt the Labour vote, remember a sizeable number of Labour voters didn't vote last time due to Palestine.

He's under pressure by, literally, the likes of Nandy and Streeting on this one at this point.

He's also him. Predict: "will try to militantly triangulate himself out of any position that could upset Trump, will however issue 'strongly worded letter', won't win anyone over no matter their stance."

Even Germany is bowing to domestic pressures to do something more concrete in terms of attempting to persuade Israel to allow in more aid- Netanyahu has said his government will let in a “minimal” amount.

“Merz has already criticized Israeli actions in unusually strong terms for a German leader, but is now facing demands to match his rhetoric with action, including from his junior coalition partner, the center-left Social Democratic Party (SPD). Two senior SPD lawmakers this week called on Merz’s government to stop weapons exports to Israel and to join European efforts to suspend the EU’s association agreement with the country.”

This is such a great example of people distorting reality to criticise Israel.

"Freedom to leave the country"

Hamas and Egypt both heavily control and restrict the movement of people in and out of Gaza, and in many cases, they are the primary obstacles.

To exit Gaza via the Rafah crossing into Egypt, Palestinians must first be approved by Hamas’ Interior Ministry. That process is:

Opaque and often politically motivated.

Dependent on whether you're viewed as politically loyal.

Frequently dependent on paying bribes or “coordination fees” to Hamas-affiliated travel agents in vast sums only few can afford

Denied outright for critics of Hamas, Fatah supporters, journalists, and activists.

Even medical patients or students trying to study abroad can be blocked if their names aren’t cleared by Hamas. This isn’t a theoretical claim, it’s been documented by rights groups and reported by Palestinians themselves for years.

The Rafah crossing is not freely open. It is controlled by Egypt, not Israel, and it is often closed for long stretches.

Entry into Egypt typically requires prior approval from Egyptian security services.

Even when open, only limited categories of people are allowed through, such as those with foreign residency or urgent medical cases.

Applicants must often wait weeks or months for approval. The cost is huge, often roughly the annual Gazan wage.

This is not an open border. Egypt has also built a border wall and buffer zone, and destroyed hundreds of smuggling tunnels out of concern for terrorism and weapons flow linked to Hamas.

Within Gaza, Hamas operates internal checkpoints, especially near sensitive areas or the border. Movement is monitored, and people seen as dissenting, journalists, women travelling alone, or activists, may be stopped, questioned, or denied passage. There are documented cases of curfews and lockdowns imposed on neighbourhoods after unrest or political activity.

Women’s movement is especially restricted. Hamas has pressured women, through policing and intimidation, about how and where they travel. There have even been reports that women are sometimes barred from travelling without a male guardian’s permission, even to leave the country.

It’s time people stopped pretending this is all down to Israel. Gazans are trapped between a terrorist regime on one side, a wary Egyptian state on the other, and a public narrative that refuses to hold anyone else accountable.

You know who else can't leave the country?

Someone I personally know and who was accepted into a PhD program at a prestigious European university. Because travel ban.

Who can't enter it? His brother, who has lived abroad since the 2000s, technically is allowed to and realistically has been warned via phone call from supposedly the embassy "you will be arrested and put into a prison the second you cross that border" - which might be a death sentence given how these prisons operate and given a medical condition.

You say "freedom".

Israel says "Palestinians aren't even free to hug their own brothers - we will keep one in and the other out!"

The rate at which people have signed up to this new party is amazing! It’s really positive to have an alternative to right wing / centre right politics. Must alarm Reform too- as I don’t think people always understand what they stand for (except anti-immigration) but want an alternative to the labour and Tory government.

Reform has fewer than 230,00 - half the size of Your Party membership.

Staggering.

A democratic defecit?

Palestinians last had legislative elections in 2006, which Hamas won fairly, and presidential elections in 2005. In Gaza, if you were to form a political party and challenge Hamas, you'd be murdered.

The Palestinian Authority routinely suppresses dissent: arbitrary arrests, torture, extrajudicial killings, and silencing of journalists. Freedom House lists the PA as “Not Free” and harper worst ratings decades into rule.

In Gaza, Hamas governs without elections, jails critics, harasses local NGOs, and shuts video broadcasts that don’t toe the party line, tortures people and controls every aspect of their lives.

There's a secret GAY BAR???. Palestinian territories rank near the very bottom globally on the LGBTQ Equality Index. Same-sex marriage is unrecognized, and homosexuals face harassment, arrests, and even extrajudicial execution.

Israel is the freest country in the Middle East for LGBTQ+ people, by a long shot. Same-sex relationships have been legal since 1988.

Gay marriage isn’t performed in Israel (because no civil marriages are performed for anyone - including straight couples). That’s because marriage in Israel is handled by religious authorities, not the state.

However, gay marriages performed abroad are fully recognised by the government and entitle couples to all the same legal rights as heterosexual married couples. LGBTQ+ people serve openly in the military, adopt children, and live freely. Tel Aviv is often ranked among the most LGBTQ+ friendly cities in the world, with pride parades drawing over 250,000 people.

Yes, Israel doesn’t conduct civil marriages at all - for anyone. That includes Jewish–Christian, Jewish–Muslim, Jewish–atheist, or even Jewish couples from different traditions (e.g., Reform and Orthodox Jews). However, all marriages performed abroad are recognised in Israel.

As a result, thousands of interfaith and secular Israeli couples get married in Cyprus or Europe, and those marriages are fully legal in Israel. They can file taxes jointly, inherit, register children, and so on.

So no - Israel doesn’t ban gay or mixed marriages. It applies the same religious system to everyone, and fully recognises foreign marriages of all types, including same-sex and interfaith unions.

What it doesn't do is pretend its religious marriage structure is ideal. Most Israelis support reform. But the idea that this makes it a theocratic or oppressive regime is nonsense. Especially when you’re comparing it to territories where being openly gay can get you killed.

Palestinians haven’t had meaningful freedom to choose leaders, express dissent, or live transparently in decades. So yes - it’s telling that so many people wave placards about Gaza’s lack of freedom while brushing aside the fact that the government on their side doesn’t give them any.

It's also telling that people write desperate posts like this trying to paint a completely false reality.

Streeting just won his seat by 528 votes. There was previously a 9000 majority.

The concerns about Gaza did cost them votes in the election, and a woolly response to this by Starmer is not going to cut the mustard with concerned MPs.

It also feels that there is some co-ordination going on behind scenes to improve situation for Palestinians- with Germany, France and EU leading the way within Europe. This may also encourage other countries to also become more inclined to see what measures can be used to influence the situation.

If they can channel some of the spirit of the late Tony Benn, maybe we can finally get a party that actually works for the people, instead of other interests.

Judging by the political movements brewing in France,Germany, the UK and America. The Palestinian issue may prove fatal to certain administrations. These recent moves aren't to benefit the Palestinians they're to counter growing public anger.

Arab terrorism in British Mandate Palestine long predates any Jewish militant activity, beginning as early as 1920 with the Nebi Musa riots in Jerusalem, where Arab mobs killed and injured dozens of Jews.

Throughout the 1920s and 1930s, Arab attacks on Jewish civilians were frequent and deadly, including the 1921 Jaffa riots (47 Jews murdered), the 1929 Hebron massacre (67 Jews slaughtered, many of them children and elderly), and the 1936–1939 Arab Revolt, a sustained, violent uprising that resulted in the deaths of over 400 Jewish civilians and dozens of British personnel.

These years saw widespread ambushes, bombings, stabbings, and pogroms, often aimed at defenceless communities.

The Arab terror campaign began decades before the Jewish Irgun or Lehi groups launched their own militant resistance against British targets in the 1940s.

In short, Arab terrorism against Jews was a deeply rooted and sustained campaign long before any retaliatory Jewish violence ever emerged.

I am sure of course, that you do not give a fuck though.

Interesting to hear what's happening in other countries. Obviously I'm in Ireland and here the focus is very much on Occupied Territories Bill which will.prohibit goods (and hopefully services) from the Occupied Territories soon .

Simon Harris (Tanaiste) yesterday gave support to a day of protest.

Just to clarify - what exact travel ban are you referring to? Israel doesn’t impose blanket bans on all Palestinians. There are restrictions, yes -but they’re typically based on individual security assessments. If there’s a specific case you’re citing, it would help to know the details as it sounds quite strange that a random person has been told they'll be arrested and thrown in prison

Israel seems to deem it "relevant to its supposed security", yes, to deny some people permission to travel for a scholarship abroad and equally to threaten the same people's family members with immediate arrest should they travel to go see their family in the place where they were born.

This is correct.

I am obviously not about to expose the concrete persons in question here.

Meanwhile both the U.S. and Israeli military officials (speaking on the condition of anonymity) have said that there is no proof that Hamas systematically stole UN and US aid!

“The military officials who spoke to The New York Times said that the original U.N. aid operation was relatively reliable and less vulnerable to Hamas interference than the operations of many of the other groups bringing aid into Gaza. That’s largely because the United Nations managed its own supply chain and handled distribution directly inside Gaza.“

“An internal U.S. government analysis came to a similar conclusion, <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/ikwbQ/www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/usaid-analysis-found-no-evidence-massive-hamas-theft-gaza-aid-2025-07-25/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Reuters reported on Friday. It found no evidence of systematic Hamas theft of U.S.-funded humanitarian supplies, the report said.”

https://archive.ph/ikwbQ

I read about this a few months ago as it seemed to come up in debate quite often.

It’s actually rather striking that the exact same tactics are still used today!

The full book is available on Amazon if you’re interested.

https://www.meforum.org/middle-east-quarterly/book-reviews/deir-yassin-the-end-of-the-myth

https://x.com/CherylWroteIt/status/1871510540562129143

They haven't joined. They've signed up to a mailing list. Half of them will be journalists!