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Conflict in the Middle East

Francesca Albanese

270 replies

BeJollyNewt · 13/07/2025 22:20

'There are no red lines anymore' says UN Palestinian rights expert on US sanctions

OP posts:
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14
Mabari · 15/07/2025 09:58

GuevarasBeret · 14/07/2025 11:27

You say that as if it is obviously crazy talk.

But how would you assess whether it is true? I mean, at least the UK owned that they had a “Special Relationship” with the US (for all it was worth when push came to shove). Many people have independently arrived at the same conclusion, and you’re view is that it cannot even be mentioned?

So to clarify, you dont think it's crazy talk that America is subjugated by the Jewish lobby?

MMOC · 15/07/2025 13:16

smallglassbottle · 15/07/2025 04:36

This is called 'Don't look here, look over there', and nobody's buying it.

Okay. Let’s look at Gaza.
Their terrorist government decided to go out and murder, rape and torture innocent people. No stray bombs, no ‘collateral damage’
Purposefully entered Israel and slaughtered them. Even took a few back to Gaza to kill and rape.
Idiot people in the UK feel that this was okay and didn’t deserve retaliation and cry ‘genocide’
I seriously think Israel with all their genocide history would have been a bit better at it to be fair because they potentially should have already erased the whole of Gaza by now.

Supersimkin7 · 15/07/2025 13:26

Civilians do get shot when they vote in terror govts. Look at Germany in WWII.

Palestinians are Hamas’ collateral damage, not Israel’s. Way before Oct 7 Israel
was warning people Hamas was up
To no good on its own supporters.

Anonimummy · 15/07/2025 13:53

MMOC · 15/07/2025 13:16

Okay. Let’s look at Gaza.
Their terrorist government decided to go out and murder, rape and torture innocent people. No stray bombs, no ‘collateral damage’
Purposefully entered Israel and slaughtered them. Even took a few back to Gaza to kill and rape.
Idiot people in the UK feel that this was okay and didn’t deserve retaliation and cry ‘genocide’
I seriously think Israel with all their genocide history would have been a bit better at it to be fair because they potentially should have already erased the whole of Gaza by now.

Exactly!

Israel has had 77 years to ethnically cleanse and genocide the Arabs/Palestinians in the region but the population has increased NINE fold since 1948.

Israel seems to excel at a lot of things like innovation and enterprise, but is obviously absolutely crap at ethnic cleansing and genocide despite having one of the most highly trained armies in the region.

Hmmmm.

MMOC · 15/07/2025 14:22

Anonimummy · 15/07/2025 13:53

Exactly!

Israel has had 77 years to ethnically cleanse and genocide the Arabs/Palestinians in the region but the population has increased NINE fold since 1948.

Israel seems to excel at a lot of things like innovation and enterprise, but is obviously absolutely crap at ethnic cleansing and genocide despite having one of the most highly trained armies in the region.

Hmmmm.

If it wasn’t so tragic and slightly inappropriate it would be hilarious.

smallglassbottle · 15/07/2025 16:18

More explanations, yet nobody's buying it.

Dangermoo · 15/07/2025 16:30

smallglassbottle · 15/07/2025 16:18

More explanations, yet nobody's buying it.

Yes you are buying it, as are millions of other lefties; that's the whole point. You still haven't answered why it's this particular conflict you are bothered by.

GuevarasBeret · 15/07/2025 17:39

Mabari · 15/07/2025 09:58

So to clarify, you dont think it's crazy talk that America is subjugated by the Jewish lobby?

Well I reject the tin-foil hat words you’d like me to use, and limit myself to a Jewish writer, born in London, but who was based in the US for many years- he has since died.

This was from 2005 /2006

Israel continues to mock its American patron, building illegal settlements in cynical disregard of the “road map.” The President of the United States of America has been reduced to a ventriloquist’s dummy, pitifully reciting the Israeli cabinet line

There is an obvious tension between the word patron in the first sentence and the ventriloquist’s dummy of the second, but the suggestion is clear that America will do what Israel asks/tells.

Israel: a country which for fifty years has rested its entire national strategy on preventive wars, disproportionate retaliation, and efforts to redesign the map of the whole Middle East.

and on the US in Iraq but making a comparison with Israel

It is one thing for the US unconditionally to underwrite Israel’s behaviour (though in neither country’s interest, as some Israeli commentators at least have remarked). But for the US to imitate Israel wholesale, to import that tiny country’s self-destructive, intemperate response to any hostility or opposition and to make it the leitmotif of American foreign policy: that is simply bizarre. So the US underwrites Israel unconditionally, and Israel responds intemperately to any hostility or opposition.

The writer also has another quote that non-Jewish journalists in America are afraid to print anything hostile to the state of Israel for fear of accusations of anti-semitism. I’ll can’t find it at the moment but will continue to look.

I think the extent to which these things are true has waxed and waned in the last twenty years, but they aren’t crazy ideas at all.

Mabari · 15/07/2025 17:41

GuevarasBeret · 15/07/2025 17:39

Well I reject the tin-foil hat words you’d like me to use, and limit myself to a Jewish writer, born in London, but who was based in the US for many years- he has since died.

This was from 2005 /2006

Israel continues to mock its American patron, building illegal settlements in cynical disregard of the “road map.” The President of the United States of America has been reduced to a ventriloquist’s dummy, pitifully reciting the Israeli cabinet line

There is an obvious tension between the word patron in the first sentence and the ventriloquist’s dummy of the second, but the suggestion is clear that America will do what Israel asks/tells.

Israel: a country which for fifty years has rested its entire national strategy on preventive wars, disproportionate retaliation, and efforts to redesign the map of the whole Middle East.

and on the US in Iraq but making a comparison with Israel

It is one thing for the US unconditionally to underwrite Israel’s behaviour (though in neither country’s interest, as some Israeli commentators at least have remarked). But for the US to imitate Israel wholesale, to import that tiny country’s self-destructive, intemperate response to any hostility or opposition and to make it the leitmotif of American foreign policy: that is simply bizarre. So the US underwrites Israel unconditionally, and Israel responds intemperately to any hostility or opposition.

The writer also has another quote that non-Jewish journalists in America are afraid to print anything hostile to the state of Israel for fear of accusations of anti-semitism. I’ll can’t find it at the moment but will continue to look.

I think the extent to which these things are true has waxed and waned in the last twenty years, but they aren’t crazy ideas at all.

Those aren't the words I'd like you to use, they are the words that Francesca Albanese used. And that you agreed with.

GuevarasBeret · 15/07/2025 18:17

Mabari · 15/07/2025 17:41

Those aren't the words I'd like you to use, they are the words that Francesca Albanese used. And that you agreed with.

I’ve tried to find the original quote for that and it seems to go back to a 2014 fundraiser for UNHRW. The linked post is in Italian, (which I do not speak) and therefore for me subject to translation nuance.

Is there something she herself has published in English. You quoted her in English, but she didn’t say those words, someone else said that. Is it subjugated or subject to? Do you use the same verb for both in Italian (I don’t know, I’m asking)

Notwithstanding, all that, I wouldn’t use the words you attributed to her. In response I used the words of Tony Judt. Do you have anything to comment on his words and why you agree or disagree with them.

smallglassbottle · 15/07/2025 18:18

Dangermoo · 15/07/2025 16:30

Yes you are buying it, as are millions of other lefties; that's the whole point. You still haven't answered why it's this particular conflict you are bothered by.

I'm not a 'leftie' as it happens and you don't get to interrogate me regarding which conflicts I follow. Perhaps you need to realise that we're not buying it anymore. All this ridiculous 'explaining' activity on these boards. Demanding, bossy and intolerant. I don't inhabit this world thank God, so I don't need to work at satisfying anyone.

I repeat, it's not working. It will never work. People aren't stupid. You're not fooling anyone with the constant demands and assertions.

Dangermoo · 15/07/2025 19:40

Demands, interrogation? I understand. You can't be expected to do a quick read up on all the other conflicts. I know there's not much mileage in signalling one's virtue, when it comes to Sudan. The Gaza bandwagon is so full, so no room for those poor non arabs, at the hands of militia. I guess that ethnic cleansing must be a different type I wonder why.

smallglassbottle · 15/07/2025 22:28

Oh I never virtue signal 😂 I have no need for that.

"Don't look here! Look over there!"

The places I've looked have thrown up some very illuminating information recently. It's amazing what you can discover if you keep looking.

LipstickLessons · 16/07/2025 01:01

smallglassbottle · 15/07/2025 22:28

Oh I never virtue signal 😂 I have no need for that.

"Don't look here! Look over there!"

The places I've looked have thrown up some very illuminating information recently. It's amazing what you can discover if you keep looking.

I'm so grateful that people are looking. Israel has never been less popular because people have been looking and their stomachs have been turning. All of the noise on here from people who pretend not to see is not reflected in real life at all. People know what the Israeli government are doing, they've shown people who they are and the majority people have listened.

It's a done deal, no amount of posting on forums or social media or sanctioning of those who call out Israels crimes can reverse Israels downward trend. It's a shame but there is no redemption arc in Israels future.

Francesca Albanese
MisanthropeLikely · 16/07/2025 08:19

LipstickLessons · 16/07/2025 01:01

I'm so grateful that people are looking. Israel has never been less popular because people have been looking and their stomachs have been turning. All of the noise on here from people who pretend not to see is not reflected in real life at all. People know what the Israeli government are doing, they've shown people who they are and the majority people have listened.

It's a done deal, no amount of posting on forums or social media or sanctioning of those who call out Israels crimes can reverse Israels downward trend. It's a shame but there is no redemption arc in Israels future.

This post isn’t just criticism, it’s full of sneering, like it’s enjoying the idea of Israel being hated and finished for good. Saying there’s “no redemption arc” makes it sound like the whole country and its people are beyond saving, which is exactly the kind of talk used against Jews in the past—by Nazis and other hate movements. It’s writing off a whole Jewish state with disgust and acting like that’s just fine. I find it very dehumanising, not normal behaviour at all.

Mabari · 16/07/2025 08:34

GuevarasBeret · 15/07/2025 18:17

I’ve tried to find the original quote for that and it seems to go back to a 2014 fundraiser for UNHRW. The linked post is in Italian, (which I do not speak) and therefore for me subject to translation nuance.

Is there something she herself has published in English. You quoted her in English, but she didn’t say those words, someone else said that. Is it subjugated or subject to? Do you use the same verb for both in Italian (I don’t know, I’m asking)

Notwithstanding, all that, I wouldn’t use the words you attributed to her. In response I used the words of Tony Judt. Do you have anything to comment on his words and why you agree or disagree with them.

If you think it was mistranslated take it up with the many outlets who translated it that way. Instead of just assuming that the person with a history of saying antisemitic things must have been misinterpreted when she repeated a centuries old antisemitic tropes. Its a bit gaslighty.

https://x.com/USAmbHRC/status/1603091256082563075

https://x.com/USAmbHRC/status/1603091256082563075

Twiglets1 · 16/07/2025 08:36

MisanthropeLikely · 16/07/2025 08:19

This post isn’t just criticism, it’s full of sneering, like it’s enjoying the idea of Israel being hated and finished for good. Saying there’s “no redemption arc” makes it sound like the whole country and its people are beyond saving, which is exactly the kind of talk used against Jews in the past—by Nazis and other hate movements. It’s writing off a whole Jewish state with disgust and acting like that’s just fine. I find it very dehumanising, not normal behaviour at all.

It's just demonstrably wrong too.

Who would have thought that Israel and the UK could forgive Germany - and relatively quickly too - for the actions of the Nazis during WW2? Not that the two wars are comparable but it just goes to show that there is always forgiveness for the "sins of the fathers" among reasonable people.

Yet Germany now have many genuine allies - including the UK, including Israel. There is always a redemption arc, even if you accept the premise that Israel will need one after the war is over and a more moderate government voted in.

SharonEllis · 16/07/2025 08:44

Twiglets1 · 16/07/2025 08:36

It's just demonstrably wrong too.

Who would have thought that Israel and the UK could forgive Germany - and relatively quickly too - for the actions of the Nazis during WW2? Not that the two wars are comparable but it just goes to show that there is always forgiveness for the "sins of the fathers" among reasonable people.

Yet Germany now have many genuine allies - including the UK, including Israel. There is always a redemption arc, even if you accept the premise that Israel will need one after the war is over and a more moderate government voted in.

Exactly. The only reason there would be no 'redemption arc' for Israel would be if people were implacably racist towards Jews. We are assured this is not the case.

GuevarasBeret · 16/07/2025 09:10

Mabari · 16/07/2025 08:34

If you think it was mistranslated take it up with the many outlets who translated it that way. Instead of just assuming that the person with a history of saying antisemitic things must have been misinterpreted when she repeated a centuries old antisemitic tropes. Its a bit gaslighty.

https://x.com/USAmbHRC/status/1603091256082563075

I don’t mean it to be gaslighting, but I am not prepared to accept those specific words, for the reasons given, and explained the words I was prepared to accept, and why.

But moving on to your response, it does feel like any criticism of Israeli actions in Gaza are “anti-Semitic tropes”. Can I have a viewpoint you disagree with which would not be anti-Semitic? e.g. “The Israeli response to the October 7th attack is disproportionate and not something which its western allies should condone.” My guess is you would disagree, but can we disagree without me being labelled anti-Semitic?

Is it the case that once someone has been labelled “Anti-Semite” any comment they make can be disregarded, and might it not be the case that you are attacking the individual first to avoid assessing whether there is any merit in what they say.

Even if the translation of Albanese is correct, that does not mean that there is no evidence of wrongdoing by the IDF in Gaza, nor that the evidence should be disregarded without examination because you don’t like the person who has mentioned it.

LipstickLessons · 16/07/2025 10:13

SharonEllis · 16/07/2025 08:44

Exactly. The only reason there would be no 'redemption arc' for Israel would be if people were implacably racist towards Jews. We are assured this is not the case.

Or because the Israeli government and their supporters (who come in all ethnicities and religions) have steadfastly shown a complete lack of self awareness for almost 2 years now and show no signs of changing, one could argue with the talk of camps and ethnic cleansing that it is just getting worse. There are no protests on the streets of Israel against this idea, there has been no pushback from Israels supporters against this idea and people are watching, people are seeing this and are of course forming opinions from what they are seeing and hearing.

Almost 2 years of watching, almost 2 years of listening and Israels popularity has never been so low. Trying to make people feel guilty for looking, calling people racist, calling people antisemitic, calling people terrorist supporters, calling people dumb, none of it is working, clearly, polls show that.

Like I said there is a massive lack of self awareness there, maybe I will be surprised and suddenly the people of Israel and their supporters will start speaking out against what we've all been watching. Given it doesn't get much worse than camps and ethnic cleansing and still there is nothing I highly doubt it though.

LipstickLessons · 16/07/2025 10:21

MisanthropeLikely · 16/07/2025 08:19

This post isn’t just criticism, it’s full of sneering, like it’s enjoying the idea of Israel being hated and finished for good. Saying there’s “no redemption arc” makes it sound like the whole country and its people are beyond saving, which is exactly the kind of talk used against Jews in the past—by Nazis and other hate movements. It’s writing off a whole Jewish state with disgust and acting like that’s just fine. I find it very dehumanising, not normal behaviour at all.

Well of course I like the idea that Israel is unpopular right now. Why would anyone like to think that a country responsible for war crimes and crimes against humanity, racial segregation, illegal occupation, a country starving people, then shooting them, then planning to push all of those starving into a camp before they ethnically cleanse them was popular? It would completely destroy your belief in humanity if popular opinion was that that was ok.

Twiglets1 · 16/07/2025 10:25

@LipstickLessons I am against the idea of the camps and have said so on MN.

The reason I haven't engaged in much debate about the idea is that many pro Palestinian people on here insist on using the term "concentration camps" to discuss them which I personally find offensive. I'm not even Jewish so I dread to think how triggering any Jewish people on here may find that particular term.

The camps may never even happen. If they do I will be against them. I will discuss them with my family and say so strongly. But I still probably won't discuss them on MN because I think people that use terms like that on here are not debating in good faith.

Mabari · 16/07/2025 10:25

GuevarasBeret · 16/07/2025 09:10

I don’t mean it to be gaslighting, but I am not prepared to accept those specific words, for the reasons given, and explained the words I was prepared to accept, and why.

But moving on to your response, it does feel like any criticism of Israeli actions in Gaza are “anti-Semitic tropes”. Can I have a viewpoint you disagree with which would not be anti-Semitic? e.g. “The Israeli response to the October 7th attack is disproportionate and not something which its western allies should condone.” My guess is you would disagree, but can we disagree without me being labelled anti-Semitic?

Is it the case that once someone has been labelled “Anti-Semite” any comment they make can be disregarded, and might it not be the case that you are attacking the individual first to avoid assessing whether there is any merit in what they say.

Even if the translation of Albanese is correct, that does not mean that there is no evidence of wrongdoing by the IDF in Gaza, nor that the evidence should be disregarded without examination because you don’t like the person who has mentioned it.

Of course criticising the actions of the IDF isn't antisemitic. But why should we have to listed to someone with a history of making antisemitic comments?

LipstickLessons · 16/07/2025 10:49

Twiglets1 · 16/07/2025 10:25

@LipstickLessons I am against the idea of the camps and have said so on MN.

The reason I haven't engaged in much debate about the idea is that many pro Palestinian people on here insist on using the term "concentration camps" to discuss them which I personally find offensive. I'm not even Jewish so I dread to think how triggering any Jewish people on here may find that particular term.

The camps may never even happen. If they do I will be against them. I will discuss them with my family and say so strongly. But I still probably won't discuss them on MN because I think people that use terms like that on here are not debating in good faith.

Let's hope Israelis don't take your stance and stay quiet on it because they see their offense as being more important than people's lives. It would be great to see them out on the streets making it clear that they will not stand by and watch this happen. Right now though the silence is deafening and people have noticed.

GuevarasBeret · 16/07/2025 11:06

Mabari · 16/07/2025 10:25

Of course criticising the actions of the IDF isn't antisemitic. But why should we have to listed to someone with a history of making antisemitic comments?

Of course criticising the actions of the IDF isn't antisemitic. But why should we have to listed to someone with a history of making antisemitic comments?

Because it seems that it is the fact of making the comment which qualifies one for receiving the Anti-Semite label.

To go further: The response of the Israeli government and the IDF to the October 7th attacks are so disproportionate that the western allies must not condone them. Not condoning should take the form of insisting on investigating possible war crimes, including genocide, and any military or intelligence support should be predicated on these investigations being carried out. Should Israel reject this then there should be a general boycott, starting with banking and telecommunications services.