Why do you get all the knobs at Glastonbury? (Part 2)

[HellsBalls]

Bob Vylan crying in their cornflakes after having their US visas revoked.
This is pretty serious as one ESTA question is ‘Have you ever been denied a U.S. visa you applied for with your current or previous passport, or have you ever been refused admission to the United States or withdrawn your application for admission at a U.S. port of entry?’

So no US work or holidays in the future for them.

Also three festivals have dropped them, so far.

Freedom of speech yes, freedom from the consequences, no.

Reading festival is awful for rubbish being left behind ( I live nearby).

One year loads of people burnt tents at the end of the festival rather than carry them home.

And that festival is dominated by young people celebrating their A level/GCSE results (or getting wasted to forget them) so bad behaviour is definitely not the preserve of the "gammons".

Nice try. Just saying that being an entitled arsehole is also colourblind.

This war.

Of course race plays a part in it - as does religion. Everyone fighting over land that supposedly belonged to them at some time in the past. Babies murdered, men and women crippled, families destroyed. For what? Because some men millennia ago decided their version of the same stories were better than some other men’s.

Groups of people marginalised and driven out of their homes in Europe / Gaza by their neighbours, murdered and starved. It’s all horrific - and unnecessary.

I completely agree. But the ones I saw at Glasto were shiny red.

So you judged a wider group of people by a sub-group that share their appearance?

I find all of these descriptors - whether it’s ‘gammon’ and ‘Karen’ or ‘woke’ - pathetic and lazy. It feels like stereotyping people has just become totally acceptable. Easier to just write off people with different opinions to you as ‘thick, racist gammon’ or ‘woke leftie’ than engage in any kind of meaningful dialogue.

Re; Carnival - it’s similar to Glastonbury in that it has snowballed into a huge event that attracts all sorts, including all sorts of idiots. There have always been spots of trouble and some shady pockets at Carnival (also grew up near the route), just like there were periods of bad drug and theft issues at Glasto, but it’s now with both you get the really widespread antisocial behaviour/rubbish/idiotic drunken foolishness associated with massive mainstream events.

Plesee keep the massive stupid fucking flags and political rants out of Carnival though 🙏

What are you on about?

These large groups of lads being antisocial, pissing everywhere, throwing rubbish and leaving loads of their stuff behind looked like gammon to me. Overhearing snippets of their conversations, they sounded like they were not purveyors of woke (and I use that word in a positive way, because frankly who wouldn’t want to be kind, compassionate and educated about cultural struggles?) culture.

What’s your point here?

can we just skip to the gotcha?

I'm still waiting for anyone to provide an example of any powerful country that has turned the other cheek after more than a thousand of their innocent civilians have been massacred.

@Stefanodad thank you for acknowledging that this is a fair point.

I do actually agree with you that the IDF response has become disproportionate. I'm not someone that will defend everything their government have authorised just because overall, I take their side in the war against Hamas. I also agree with you that the 2 sides are both trapped in a cycle of violence.

I understand the frustration from some that our politicians appear to have taken one side over the other but the reality is that Israel are our allies. Hence our politicians may criticise certain actions of the Israel government verbally, but they were always unlikely to take actions against them that Israel would perceive as hostile.

I believe ‘death to the IDF’ was a call to dismantle an organisation that has committed war crimes according to much of the international community. It was stupid, poorly worded, and has distracted from the more important conversation.

Doesn’t seem like it was just poorly worded or merely calling for a dismantling of the IDF:
^^
“The Metropolitan Police has now said it has launched a separate investigation after Bob Vylan allegedly called for "death to every single IDF soldier out there" at a gig one month before Glastonbury.”

https://news.sky.com/story/bob-vylan-to-no-longer-headline-festival-in-manchester-after-glastonbury-controversy-13391486

And anyway, what do you think would happen to Israelis if their army were dismantled?

Yes, they are reductive, but they are shortcuts to painting a picture. No one seems to have an issue with the term hippie or laddie. Language is full of words that conjure up a picture of particular person or attitude. Yet it’s only some that get the (faux?) outrage.

Carnival is already political. Music has always been political. The idea that flying a Palestine flag has made Glasto political when before it wasn’t is utter nonsense.

It’s long been a place where people gathered to challenge the establishment and protest against nuclear arms, war etc through culture and music.

Michael Rosen made a post a couple of days ago about Bob Dylan singing Masters of War at Glasto in 1998.

The 4th verse is:

And I hope that you die
And your death will come soon
I'll follow your casket
By the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand over your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead

Music has always been political. It always will be.

The atrocities carried out by Hamas on the 7th of October did not start the Israel Hamas war. Its roots are in the Nakba in 1947 /48. In addition the IDF is an organisation. He did not call for the death of people, its is the disbanding of an organisation that targets starving people queueing up for food.
Again, look at my first sentence which acknowledges the atrocities of 07/10, All genocide is wrong.

Well that’s not something I’m going to defend, of course. That’s much more personal and entirely unacceptable.

Suggesting that dismantling the IDF is asking for Israel to be defenceless is as puerile as those people who said ‘defund the police? Sure, then let’s see how you feel when your house is burgled’.

Because one institution is unfit for purpose doesn’t mean it should be removed and not replaced. Israel should have an army and must be allowed to defend itself.

But not with a group that has committed war crimes.

This is not a binary choice - IDF or nothing. I’m sure a country with the intelligence, resources and international partners that Israel has can put together an alternative.

Worth quoting their statement, since you’ve brought this up:

••••

"We are not for the death of Jews, Arabs or any other race or group of people.

"We are for the dismantling of a violent military machine. A machine whose own soldiers were told to use "unnecessary lethal force" against innocent civilians waiting for aid.

"A machine that has destroyed much of Gaza."

The statement added: "We, like those in the spotlight before us, are not the story.

"We are a distraction from the story. And whatever sanctions we receive will be a distraction."

•••••

Death to every IDF soldier is, to me, a step too far and unacceptably personal. To them it seems to be a metaphysical line, that is not to be taken literally. But I’m not sure that matters at a time like this, when the hurt is so raw and open anti-Semitism is rising. I think it was ill-judged. I don’t feel the same about ‘death to the IDF’ as that to me speaks to the institution.

First up, I’m not outraged or offended (faux or otherwise) by these terms. But I think the difference with ‘hippie’ and those easy descriptors of a bygone era is that we didn’t have social media.

People (including presidents of powerful countries!) are arguing out serious issues online and using these terms to reduce whole groups of people to ‘enemy’ or at best, not worth listening to or caring about.

Young people are growing up with the adults all around them behaving like kids, ‘oh shut up Karen’, ‘ok boomer!’ etc . As I said, lazy and half the people using these terms are just parroting something they heard in TikTok and have never stopped to ask themselves what these words mean and what effect they have.

Thats my two pennies worth, anyway. I care about words and their meaning,

And yeah, music + politics have always gone hand in hand. That’s not news. But Palestine rants at Glastonbury don’t feel like hippies and politicised youth making anti Vietnam statements in the 60s…it just lands like that annoying woman at work who wears a Free Palestine badge, but was wearing a rainbow flag last year, and will jump on some other ‘I’m on the right side of history’ cause next year. I question the motives.

I can’t see Israel being particularly interested in dismantling/ restructuring the IDF right now, while they’re in the middle of fighting a terror organisation on their doorstep, one that said they’d repeat October 7th again and again and one that still holds on to 50 hostages.
Strangely, Bob Vylan seemingly didn’t feel the need to mention Hamas.

I find it really interesting that you eschew the use of pejorative terms because they make it easier to dismiss whole swathes of people, yet you have yourself dismissed everyone at Glastonbury as taking part in performative caring.

Trudging around in 28’C+ heat with a massive flagpole and Palestine flag isn’t done lightly. There were also numerous forums, performances, talks etc on the crisis in Gaza. It wasn’t just about ‘wearing a badge’. But even if that’s how some people engaged with it, who are you to judge?

So what if Joy from customer care shows her allegiance with a small piece of enamel? Perhaps that’s her way of inviting others to talk to her and share their thoughts.

Why would anyone want to police the ‘right’ way to engage with politics?

i’m sure the hippies were dismissed as ‘middle class weed smokers’ in their time. In fact, having done some research into Greenham, I know they were talked about in just as dismissive a way as you are talking about those at Glastonbury.

Because no one, as far as I can tell, is defending Hamas or defending their right to exist (although fuck knows what kneecap thought they were doing with up Hamas’). Why do they need to be mentioned? Isn’t it a consensus that they are evil and must be destroyed?

That doesn’t excuse the war crimes being executed against the Gazan people. Both things are wrong and must be stopped. Neither are the fault of the Gazan civilians.

I get so bemused when I see white people calling other people gammon.

It’s a slur against white people in general.

I remember hearing Caribbean kids insulting any and all white people as gammons when I was in school, back in the late 90s.

Just weird to me they seem to have added extra steps, to make it not applicable to them.

No it isn’t. It’s a slur against racist white people.

Maybe I don’t use it in the same way as Caribbean kids in the 90s.

It was apparently started by Dickens, so unlikely to be a slur against all white people originally.

This is what I mean.

So confidently saying ‘No it isn’t’, when I’ve only heard it being used in the way you describe for the last few years.

For about 30 years to me, that was an insult to white people in general. So it’s weird hearing it be redifined is all.

I guess it depends where you grew up, I find the white people who use it tend to be quite middle class, so maybe didn’t hear it / know the meaning as they didn’t grow up in areas with much diversity maybe.

I’m not dismissing anyone, I’m telling you how it lands with me. People can ‘do’ politics any old way they like.

If wearing a badge and calling other people ‘Karen is how some want to engage with the world, I can’t stop them. But I can and will critique it. Call that judgement if you like.

(And I’m sorry, I love a good ‘small act of resistance’ but…🤣 my heart goes out to those warriors who lugged a Palestine flag around a £400 a ticket festival for 3 whole arduous days. Modern day Bobby Sands!)

Like you confidently said ‘it’s a slur against all white people’?

It’s almost as if there is regional and temporal variation in language.

I’m not sure what the issue is?

Of course I realise words can be used in different contexts in different areas/demographics.

I simply said it’s weird hearing a word that I’ve only ever known to be a slur against white people, suddenly (last couple of years) being used as an insult by white people.

It just gives me the reaction of ‘you’re insulting yourself, and don’t even realise it’. It’s weird. (To me).

It’s not that deep, if you want to use it… cool?!?

Most agree that things are happening that we don't like on all sides here.

The Bob Vylan problem is hugely symbolic. Firstly it is an obvious incitement and puts any Jewish people in that crowd or anywhere in this Country in a really vulnerable and potentially dangerous position! It's naive to say otherwise.

Then the IDF - aren't they conscripted and have little choice? Fuck off Vylan, I doubt you'll be fighting for anything or anyone even if forced.

We then have the bigger issue, the undercurrent let's call it. We have an issue which is simply Islam v Judaism.

We have a political two tier system at present favouring those representing Islam and a punitive disproportionate response for those representing opposition. A great deal of outrage is linked to this. How the powers that be respond to Bob Vylan the absolute privileged pin head - that tells us something that reflects an undercurrent of what we do not want quite frankly. That is a favourable leaning towards Islam if the response is not equitable to how other outspoken people saying much less have been treated.

You were very dismissive. What possible reason have you got for believing it’s performative caring? What have you based that on? Just because it was happening at a festival?

£400 isn’t particularly expensive for a festival these days. Even the tiny kids’ festivals are £200+ for 3 days of local bands and you have to buy absolutely everything on top. Glastonbury is 5 days long and allows you to bring your own food and drink, including into the arenas. It provides sunscreen, chilled water, loo roll, security lock ups, all for free, there’s a co-op that sells stuff at regular (non festival) prices, there are places to get free food and stalls are encouraged to offer a £6 meal (variable quality). The arts, music, comedy, spoken word, forum offer is second to none.

As far as festivals go, it’s the least commercial one I’ve been to, except perhaps Burning Man (although I’m sure that’s very different these days). It’s not perfect, but it doesn’t fit the ‘middle class wokery’ stereotype people love to ascribe to it. There are lots of people there who genuinely care deeply about a range of issues - and plenty who just go for the festivities.

Again you’re so sneery about the people with Palestine flags - but you haven’t given any indication why you have decided these people are performative. You have no idea who they are or what they do for the Palestinian cause. I wasn’t suggesting the act of carrying the flag is itself an amazing feat - I’m pointing out that it’s very unlikely someone does that who doesn’t care - and I see it as indicative of a deeper care and likely further work in the area - you’ve decided it’s a minimal effort performative act and indicative of them jumping on a band wagon.

You’ve criticised them with no substance - just like ‘the annoying woman at work’ and her badges.

It’s easy to sneer, but perhaps your dismissiveness is aimed in the wrong direction.