Protesters in London - stop bombing Iran?????

[mids2019]

Is this the same Iran was enriching uranium for the express purpose of building a nuclear bomb?

Is this the same Iran that was plotting a terrorist attack on a British base in Cyprus?

Is this the same Iran that send missiles against hospitals?

The same Iran which actually has a lot going people in Iran hoping the bombing of military facilities can somehow dethrone a hated Islamist regime?

Wtaf?

Yes, I missed that, sorry.

I believe hamas would not do 7/10 if their living conditions were different. If Palestinians had their recognized country, if thousands of people, including children, from WB and Gaza were not thrown to prison without fair trials.

I'm so glad people agree with this. We would be utterly foolish to trust oppressive regimes who do things like treat women like second class citizens or commit the crime of racial segregation(as found guilty of by International Courts) . Especially when you are talking about crimes against the very people they have spent decades oppressing. What sort of fool would you have to be to just take them at their word?

These things may well have contributed to the rise of Hamas and them engaging in terrorist activity.

Nevertheless, you say you believe Hamas are responsible for their actions and it is their actions on October 7th that triggered this current war.

I think it's fair to say both sides have contributed to the war but I differ from you in that I blame Hamas more.

It wasn't anything to do with women's rights this time I don't think. It was to do with the fact that there was bombing in Iran I think - which is not exactly how the report was representing it. It is annoying that we have to look behind every report we read to check who funded the author and whether it is reliable or skewed. If some were arrested (three were arrested the day after Israel starting bombing I think) this may have led to others being discovered on phones and devices etc and being arrested for questioning, and if so is along the lines of the US talking about treason for the leak.

It wouldn't be happening at all if we could agree the two state solution....

Do you think the billions of dollars of aid given to Gaza could have been spent better by their government wrt improving life for their people?

Do you honestly think we in the west live in "free" societies where democracy is doing as it should be doing and the will of the people generally determines policy? I am not gratuitously criticising the government here, either, as I think anyone who goes into politics wanting to get good results for the benefit of most people find it extremely difficult!

Then we agree on most things.

I believe that we the current situation with starvation, bombings, mutilated children cannot be stopped by hamas, but can be stopped by Israel. Every day they make the choice to continue the blockade. And the US, UK and Europe do nothing to stop it.

Are you aware of how many people are in Gaza and the condition of Gaza and day to day living conditions for decades, and if so, how would you have spent the aid?

Do you think that if the world put pressure on the parties to agree to a fair and equal two state solution, there would be no need for anyone to question how aid has been spent?

Yes I do understand your point of view.

But the way I see it, Hamas do need to be destroyed. How can Israel destroy Hamas without waging war on the whole of Gaza as Hamas are embedded in Gaza society and hiding underneath buildings? They can't.

I think I do know why the US, UK and Europe do not much to stop it, (just words).

It's because they want Hamas destroyed too and they don't know how to do it any other way than the IDF are doing it, which is brutal and horrible.

@dangermoo I tried to find your post which gretagreen responded to but couldn't. Basically it is a difficult situation because the official stance of the UK government security is that Iran is a dangerous regime, and so we all need to have regard to this, because that is required of UK citizens, but at the same time we are aware of serious intelligence problems relating to Iraq WMD and we know of the problems Iraq, Libya etc countries faced after forced regime change - and we are aware of many other situations going back to Vietnam where things could have been done better - and we are aware that in Syria groups which we were told were dangerous are now apparently in power, and so it might be that civilians are sort of saying now "well, do we just blindly follow this time or do we say that actually there are opportunities here to think about peaceful solutions and negotiate etc". Put simply obviously. It is always complicated, and we always have history and misinformation at our backs.

A fair post.

If we talk about hamas militants, then Israel probably killed all those who took part.
By estimates, there are about 100 000 killed and Israel says most are hamas, when overall there were 25k to 40k of them.

If we talk about ideology of resistance, it cannot be killed by more oppression.

As for the west, I don’t know why they remain silent. They have exposed their hypocrisy, their actual lack of values and disregard for laws they were supposed to uphold.
The too are part of the problem.

Not for every Gazan. Wealth was unevenly distributed to say the least and that is down to the government of Gaza--hamas.

The world has been pressuring both parties for decades.

They? Not in the west then?

Your first point - how do you know and what do you know?

Your second point - no, we have not done nearly enough to pressurize. How ridiculous. If we had done so there would have been peace.

From what I’ve read the estimate is that about 20k Hamas militants have been killed. A lot of the leadership have been killed and that is a good thing.

As I said before, I think I DO know why the West allow it to happen and it is linked to democratic values. Most Western leaders hate Hamas and what they stand for. Though it’s not diplomatic to boldly state that, it is understood that Hamas needs to be stamped out. They align far more in values with Israel than Hamas.

Not that much of a surprise considering the hatred expressed towards the West.

Today IDF soldiers have openly admitted to Killimg hungry Palestinians on a almost daily basis who have been trying to just get food for their families.

One soldier describes killing Palestinians as similar to the child's game 'green light, red light'

IDF soldiers are fucking scum.

From the times of Israel:

He describes the incidents as a deadly form of the children’s game “Red light, green light.”

“It’s become a place with its own set of rules. The loss of human life means nothing. It’s not even an ‘unfortunate incident,’ like [the IDF] used to say.”

IDF soldiers will come out and openly admit to carrying out war crimes that they have been ordered to carry out by their superiors. But posters on mumsnet will still try and defend them.

I haven’t heard of any IDF soldiers saying it’s like playing a game of Red light, Green light”.

You haven’t linked to the article but I will try to find it.

If true, it’s very wrong and I won’t try to defend it.

I’ve found the report now @Whatsinanamehey

For the record it is an allegation that one soldier has made that the IDF are investigating as possible war crimes if found to be true.

One soldier may have called it that but others have come forward to say they have been ordered to shoot unarmed Palestinians who clearly did not pose any threat whilst attempting to reach aid sites. This isnt an isolated incident, nor is it just one soldier. These are war crimes carried out in a systematic manner.

The numbers have not been verified, but between May 27 and June 24, there were at least 19 IDF shooting incidents related to humanitarian aid distribution, according to a review of reports out of Gaza conducted by The Times of Israel.
In most of these cases, the IDF has admitted to opening fire and striking Palestinians, but characterized it as “warning shots” at those who got too close to soldiers or used site access routes when distribution sites were closed.
Israeli soldiers serving near the aid distribution sites described far more grim scenarios in interviews with Haaretz on condition of anonymity.
“It’s a killing field,” one soldier says. “Where I was stationed there, between one and five people were killed every day. They’re treated like a hostile force – no crowd-control measures, no tear gas – just live fire with everything imaginable: heavy machine guns, grenade launchers, mortars. Then, once the center opens, the shooting stops, and they know they can approach. Our form of communication is gunfire.”

Palestinians have been saying that even innocent civilians have been shot at and murdered daily whilst trying to collect aid from the new Israeli US GHF system. They have been telling the world that all they are trying to do is feed their families. The IDF have consistently lied that they are only shooting Palestinians who pose a threat. But once again their lies have been caught out as some of their own soldiers have come forward to say they have been ORDERED to shoot innocent Palestinians.