People on the Madleen to be deported, awaiting court.

[Nowayyousure]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y264x3nnno

Seems some activists including G Thumberg signed to say they wanted to leave immediately and are home or on way home.

Some didn't and need to be deported to their home countries. No.idea how long court takes, assume Israel will want to.just get rid, having other more pressing matters to deal with.

Greta saying they were taken and held in the bottom of boat etc and worried for them.

What did this stunt cost in money, in court fees, to the climate in air journeys home, in wasted consular time, Sweden issued a comment on that, in talking about them rather than Gazans.

On that subject this was an interesting listen from another thread.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/ZtqQN5SvPN

Interesting. For those who dont look at it a reporter who was previously in Gaza on how since 2008 the media has complied with Hamas censorship and how that has shaped the narrative. He was running a story on Hamas militantants dressed in civilian clothing and following Hamas intervention that detail was pulled. Very relevant to the stats on deaths coming out of Gaza where combstant deaths are hidden in civilian stats.

Apparently the complete version is available elsewhere. He also mentioned the number of AP journalists devoted to covering Israel compared to those covering the whole of Africa (nothing to report there obviously), and a brief comment on all the neighbouring countries attacking Israel (Iran gets a special mention).

Just another piece of the jigsaw.

This is an important point. There are very few dedicated western journalists in Africa unlike those who live in the ME, especially those based in Israel. It means they drop someone in when something happens but they dont have the depth of understanding, which means they are reactive rather than seeing what is on the horizon. Africa is so vast and so complex and we hear so little about it in the west. Its partly why there is an empathy gap.

Well, I don't know. It just seems to me, as someone in utter despair at the situation in Gaza, who was also horrified by Oct 7th that it's become difficult to not have things you say misinterpreted or whatever.
But, actually my comment about this board being polarised wasn't totally accurate on reflection. I've had a few lovely chats with like-minded pacifists in total shock at what is going on in the world.
Regarding the much repeated claim from Zionists that Israel is disproportionately criticised, when other countries have been guilty of similar things (eg, Saudi Arabia towards Yemen) and I've thought about this a great deal. Maybe in some cases there's an element of antisemitism, but I don't think it's just that, I really don't. I can't speak for anyone else, but I think, for me, it's partly because Israel is seen almost as an extension of the west. The UK and the US helped create the current state of Israel. I mean, I was on the huge anti-Irag war demo in 2003 as a young girl then (a little older now!) and nobody suggested we were anti-Christian (I am a Christian!) to be protesting actions of largely Christian governments. Britain arms Israel, I know it arms Saudi Arabia too; but it's a very different culture there, probably harder to reach or influence. I absolutely am just as upset that the UK arms Saudi Arabia. But, with Israel, I feel I have to make it more clear that it's not done in my name, iyswim? Also (and I admit to a good deal of ignorance) but the situation in Gaza does seem worse than Yemen? The fact that Gazans are being deliberately starved. I do think it's deliberate. I do think Netanyahu is a far-right genocidal dangerous maniac. I don't think that all Israelis are at all. What's happening in Gaza is so next level horrific, and supposedly backed by the west, that those of us in the west who are horrified do have a bit more of a duty to speak out.
But, I totally don't reserve my criticism just for Israel, not at all. Many governments are complicit, not least our own.

You seem to have some very robust views while admitting that you don't really know much. Its fine not to know anything, noone can know about everything but Im intetested, Did you reach your conclusions on Yemen on the basis of research? Have you followed the conflict for the decade its been going on or is it a recent thing? Do you realise that malnutrition rates in Yemen have been among the worst in the world for yeaes? 5 million on the brink of famine? Half the population has no access to safe water? 4.5 mill internally displaced 80% of them women and children? For over a de ade any aid agency will tell you how hard it is to get anyone to care about it. No weekly marches for the children of Yemen.

@WoodlandLove and what is it about Israel that makes you and others feel morally obliged to say 'not in my name'? Why do you not insert yourself into other conflicts? I dont really want to debate this as I have other things to do but you seem a thoughtful person so please do some reading. Listen to Jewish people and Israeli people.

Well, I don't know about robust views - more that I have a huge emotional response to the current state of the world.
Yes, I don't know much about Yemen at all. I do need to educate myself. But, it doesn't have to be either/or.
As explained above I think in the west we feel more connected to Israel, and for me that's the main reason it's on my mind more. So many more British politicians are vocally excusing/denying of the Gazan genocide than of than Saudi Arabia's actions. Also, quite simply it's in the news more. I can't speak for anyone else.

So ask yourself why the obsession. Why is it in tbe news more?

I don't know. That's my honest answer.
I know you and others will say because of antisemitism. I'm not so naive as to suggest there aren't some antisemites focusing on Israel. Of course there are.
But, I genuinely don't think that's the only reason. Most of the people I know are highly critical of Netanyahu at this point, including some Jewish people I know (I don't know many Jews just because of the area I live in) sincerely I don't think any of them are antisemites.
I guess it's partly the fact that Britain has such a strong history in the region. It's seen as the only democracy in the middle east, so it's held to a higher standard. Also, many Europeans emigrated to Israel in recent history, and still do. So, it just feels closer to home I guess.
Also, British colonial history makes it more uncomfortable for many British people perhaps?
I'm actually a Northern Irish protestant, so carry that with me. I live in England now, but carry a guilt around.
Many reasons.

@WoodlandLove if antisemitism is not a factor why are so many Jewish people, including children attacked and abused on UK streets, why have jewish organisations had to increase their already considerable security? Have you ever been to a literature festival where every bag was checked by security? Go to Jewish Book Week. why are Jewish organisations suddenly struggling to recruit staff, why can Jewish artists not show or sell their work in mainstream arts venues? Why did this happen after 7 October when Jewish people here are nothing to do with Israel?

Try reading Everyday Hate by Dave Rich. Don't just fall into line with easy propaganda about Israel being a white settler nation. The Jewish people are from the Middle East. Israel is a richly diverse society. All this stuff about British colonialism doesnt wash frankly. There are loads of ex colonies in Africa, I don't notice that making British people care more about them particularly. There's a saying 'no Jews, no news' which has a lot of truth to it.

Which brings us back to the link talking about AP.

When journalism becomes activism it loses impartiality, when teaching becomes politicised it becomes indoctrination. Emotional reactions are the most easy to manipulate.

Most of politics is public posturing and private manoeuvring trying to emulate swans serenely gliding across the water but paddling away below the surface. (Also not always good at telling the difference between roads and rivers which causes them a few issues - but I digress).

@SharonEllis of course antisemitism is a factor (please read my post again) it just isn't the only factor.
Obviously attacks on British Jews just going about their lives, are totally abhorrent. Much like attacks on Muslims after 9/11 were abhorrent; or attacks on Irish people during the troubles etc. It's ignorant madness to attack people just because of something other people from that religion or race have done.

Forgive me, I'm rushing now, as busy day. So, I haven't got time to respond to the rest of your post now. I will if I remember later (pathological procrastination problem, so please don't be offended if I forget! 🤭)

Its fine, Im busy too. I hope you will read tbe book I suggest, post 7 October edition.

I always find it interesting that whenever footage comes out of Gaza it predominantly features fighting age men in civilian clothing. A small, militarised terrorist state is fighting its war of all wars and yet none of these young men have been mobilised? Hmm.

You see, I think both things can be true - obviously antisemitism exists, and I understand why, after the holocaust, beleaguered survivors wanted a safe homeland. But, as a result, the Nakba happened, leaving more traumatised human beings in its wake 😔
77 years later...
Some very well documented atrocities occured in 1948 when Palestinians were forced out of their homes. To deny that is as offensive to Palestinians, as holocaust denial is to Jews. I can, and do, feel very sorry for innocent victims on both sides of the ongoing conflict.
Re Jewish people originating from the middle-east - obviously some do, and their ancestors never left; but surely Ashkenazi Jews are European? If they have middle-eastern ancestry, it would be about 2000 years old? We probably all had ancestors from various parts of the world, but that doesn't mean we have an automatic right to those places now.
I don't know, it's just desperately sad, and seemingly intractable. I'm finding the news unbearable these days 😔

Well all of this has been covered in this board today so Im not going over it again. But tell me this, where should diaspora Jews go? They have been persecuted/ murdered/ expelled across Europe and Middle East. If they are not entitled to live in their homeland, where do you think they should go?

I absolutely agree that diaspora Jews have been persecuted wherever they've gone (though I've read it was far worse in European Christendom than in the Islamic world) and it's terrible. I've never understood antisemitism at all.
But the problem is that Palestinians have lost theirs in the process.
I'm a simple soul, and don't understand why they can't share the land? They used to I think.
Maybe it's a problem that just doesn't have a solution, until human beings evolve to be less tribal. In the interim, I'll keep praying for peace and healing 😔🙏

The Palestinians have lost their what exactly? Israel withdrew from Gaza. What did Hamas do? The trouble is people keep attacking Israel and threatening to destroy it. Israel is not being 'tribal' in refusing to allow itself to be destroyed.

Palestinians lost their homeland. That's what I meant. Sorry, I was tired last night, and didn't articulate well.
Gaza is full of refugees and their descendants from what is now Israel.
I understand you feeling very sympathetic and empathetic towards Jewish people (I do too) I don't understand why it doesn't extend to Palestinians in the same way or to the same extent? I mean, you might feel empathy for Palestinians, but it doesn't seem to be equal. That's your right of course. But, I have a right to find it odd.
Your unwavering loyalty to Israel appears to have blinded you to some of the reality on the ground. I'm not an expert by any means, and I've never been to Israel/Palestine. But, some facts are easily verified by recorded statistics.
What happened on October 7th was horrific, and I condemn it without equivocation. I do think Hamas are evil. But, I also think Netanyahu and his far-right ghouls are evil - they're starving some of their fellow human beings for goodness sake!!! 😔 It's one of the worst things to have happened in our lifetimes. Please tell me you condemn them, and that you weep for the children of Gaza?
Re tribalism - well, surely Zionism is the definition of tribalism? Believing an entire country belongs to just one religion or race. I'm sure there are a kaleidoscope of opinions in Israel, as there in any population. But, some of the far-right nutters, especially the illegal settlers definitely believe they are superior, and it's a form of supremacy - definitely tribal! Humans tend to be tribal generally at this stage in our social evolution, not just Israelis.
Ultimately though of course, people are people.
I think our conversation has run its course to be honest. Online communication is so open to misunderstanding, and I'm really too sensitive to cope with it, and you seem very unwavering in your beliefs, which is absolutely your right of course, but makes my contribution to the conversation feel a bit futile.
So, if it's OK, I'll leave it there. I wish you well.

@WoodlandLove no one on these threads has defended the Settlers, to my knowledge - certainly not @SharonEllis

Equally, of course the supporters of Israel on MN do feel sorrow for the children of Gaza and for all innocent civilians ( which children are by definition).

Many of us have expressed that we don’t agree with the withholding of humanitarian aid. We’re not lacking in empathy or normal human compassion just because we mainly support Israel. Our anger is directed at Hamas not innocent Palestinians.

Better to debate the actual issues rather than question the morality of people posting on MN just because they happen to have a different opinion to you.

The Palestinians have lost their what exactly?
Are you serious I think it would be easier to list what they haven't lost.

Israel withdrew from Gaza
Nope Gaza is still an occupied territory of Israel according to the ICJ, UN General assembly, UN Security Council, US, EU and so on

Your contempt for Palestinians is obvious in your posts whether you recognise it yourself or not

This.

I don't defend settlers.

I feel for all innocents caught up in this.

Israel has a population of around 21% Palestinian Israeli so its diverse. Whereas Jewish people have been driven from their homes throughout many middle east countries which have very, if any Jewish people left, which is ignored. Many think only 'Palestinian' living in gaza ancestors lost homes and hence the give their lands back, homes back, completely ignoring Jewish people driven from various countries on the middle east because they don't matter. The Jewish people are basically in just Israel no longer spread through the middle east.

I want peace. I support Israel as a nation and their right to defend themselves and understand why other countries also support them whilst condoning any action that is illegal.

I feel many think poor Palestinian in Gaza (before the conflict even and appeared to ignore October 7th continuing to march despite a huge terrorist attack) whilst ignoring Jewish people driven from lands years ago, and its all Israel bad. Its not black and white.

I’ll will respond to this. Not on behalf of Sharon Ellis as she may have a different view.

Gaza is also full of ‘refugees’ whose ancestors came from Egypt. Why did they not ask for their own state between 1948 and 1967? Why the constant refusal of offers since then? Many people are displaced by war all over the world and throughout history. What makes Palestinians so special they feel they have a right to demand land which they insist they have the right to kill thousands of people over, when they never had sovereignty over it, and in fact their whole identity was created to cause war over it.

I feel much less empathy for the Palestinians after watching the videos of the atrocities they carried out on Oct 7th. They seemed to be actually enjoying slaughtering and kidnapping people and they celebrated the dead bodies of Jews. I am also old enough to remember the constant suicide attacks, bombings, hostage takings, plane hijackings, massacre of the Olympic team and other terrorist attacks from the 1970s onwards against Israelis.

I feel massive sympathy to the children on both sides but Palestinian adults, not really. They are well educated. They could have chosen a different path for decades. They chose Oct 7th.

Where is the evidence of starvation. This is propaganda in the same way the 20 month ‘genocide’ in Gaza is despite the population growing in that time.

Zionism is purely the goal of an independent Jewish state in the land of their ancestors (which was actually colonised by various other Empires lastly the Ottoman Empire) where Jews need not fear persecution (aside from the rest of the world).

If you knew anything about the history of the persecution of the Jewish people, long before WW2 even, you would understand that Zionism is not tribalism but survivalism.

Sorry to burst your bubble but Netanyahu will go down in history as one of the greatest leaders of our time.

That you equate him with Hamas shows you really don’t understand what you are talking about,

Sorry to burst your bubble but Netanyahu will go down in history as one of the greatest leaders of our time.

He’ll be remembered all right but I doubt history will be kind.