AIBU to be glad Lammy is taking a stance on Gaza?

[Locutus2000]

Whatever you think about Hamas - October 7th was an abomination - but surely it's been enough for some time now?

So what you’re saying is that the Arabs should have looked into the future and seen that if they didn’t accept a radical change in their living situation, they would end up in a much worse situation years down the line? It is human nature to want to maintain the status quo. You can’t blame the Palestinian Arabs for that. Hell, when my neighbours want planning permission to alter their homes, I get nervous because I worry about how it will affect me. I just want things to stay as they are.

I understand why Jewish people wanted a Jewish state but satisfying that desire had negative consequences for the Palestinian Arabs. They were put in an impossible situation and some were subsequently treated badly by the new Israeli authorities. Forced out, or not allowed to return after they fled in fear of their lives.

Yes, there were always Jewish people in that land, but there was also a massive amount of recent Jewish immigration.

The proposed UN partition in 1947 gave 55% of the land to a Jewish state and 45% of the land to an Arab state, yet just under 33% of the population was Jewish at that point.

It's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight that the Palestinians no longer have any hope of getting that much land now, but when the partition plan was presented to them, Arab leaders felt it was deeply unjust. It would also have placed hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs in a Jewish state, and the Arab leaders did not think it was fair that these people would become a minority in what they considered indivisible land, living under Jewish sovereignty. Of course, at this point, it was British Mandate Palestine, not a sovereign Arab state, and prior to that, the Ottoman Empire. But that doesn't detract from - in the eyes of the Arab leaders at the time - the fact that the partition proposal was unfair in terms of land division.

You could argue that if they'd just accepted it we wouldn't be where we are now.

You could also argue that if the proposed partition was proportionate to population, or even 50-50, we wouldn't be where we are now.

I agree with most of what you say. Although a significant portion of the Israeli land was the Negev desert, which wasn't exactly desirable.

I'm just pushing back against those who are saying that the British just gave away the Palestinians land. It was a much, much more complicated issue than that ( which it sounds like you personally understand. )

I think strong political leaders have to figure out a 2 state solution and then after many decades of peace the hatred will subside.

Neither side wants a 2 state solution at the moment and Palestinian civilians are the main losers.

Basically I believe it's possible with better leadership on both sides.

So your explanation justifies the slaughter of 55,000 of Palestinians and the starvation of the rest? Take a good look at yourself.

There was also an important factor, if not the most important factor, of the dhimmi status of Jews in Muslim/Arab societies and the theological threat to Islam of a Jewish controlled State in perceived Muslim lands. Despite the area being the ancestral home of the Jewish people 3000 years before the creation of Islam.

This is an interesting and very succinct article.

https://besacenter.org/muslims-israel-jewish-state/

It was never about land or it would have been resolved 77 years ago. The ideology of the PLO, Hamas and their ilk demonstrates that. No matter how the land was split.

Can we assume that you regard Hamas/PIJ fighters as ‘innocent civilians’ as you don’t seem to differentiate?

Jewish people have never lived in that land alone. They lived among other tribes, even if they weren’t Muslim then. Some of these were the ancestors of the present-day Palestinians.

It is very convenient for Israeli supporters like you to claim, with Israel having seized control of the land, that it is not about land. It’s the only way you can try to justify the injustice done to the Palestinians. That injustice has bred and nursed the grievance that birthed Hamas.

It’s also an abomination Israel are starving children, killing children in hospitals and everyone in Gaza

Have they stopped bombing hospitals yet?

Has Hamas stopped hiding underneath them yet?

Have Israel ever shown any convincing independently verified evidence that they ever were?

Yes, absolutely, they have to destroy Hammas, they are EVIL. And do not believe everything you read, especially on mainstream media. Wake up.

Yes.

Name another war when a military has been expected to produce independently verified evidence to the world validating every strike before they make it? I mean can you imagine?

Nuts!

Sickening that people who openly defend, so obviously support, a monstrous terrorist organisation which committed the type of atrocities that occurred on Oct 7th and openly admit that they want as many of their own people as possible to die in a war they started, post on a parenting website.

I'm glad to see the majority don't think you are unreasonable but too little and too late. They are just trying to save their backs now.

Your response isn’t worth a reply

Find it much more sickening that people can defend a country deliberately starving babies and children on a parenting website.

Are you suggesting there are no indigenous Jews in the middle east. Does the phrase abrahamic religion mean anything to you? Do you know which is the oldest abrahamic faith?

There is another version of that story...

Jews and Arabs lived in Palestine under the ottoman empire, the Turks lost the land, the plan was to partition across sectarian lines and leave to self government. There was aggression from both sides.
Palestinians who live in Israel today are descended from those who didn't listen when armies from surrounding Arab countries said ' bugger off for a couple of hours, we'll wipe out the Jews then you can come back.'

In the end you can believe what you want to believe of course.

You make an interesting point. Someone pointed me to a BBC doc ( the fifty years war) that interviewed key figures from the time. It was enlightening.
Now here we are. People really don't appreciate how much Iran's malevolent actions have contributed to the current hostilities either, or the role of Russia.

Absolutely this ^

As I said, you can believe what you want to believe.
The history of the region has many versions depending on who tells it, Palestinian Arabs live in Israel, no Jews live in Gaza (excluding those taken from Israel who are still alive).
What is your realistic solution to the ongoing conflict?

Of course but the fact remains that you are quoting a figure as victims including the terrorists. Says it all.

And you clearly believe that slaughtering innocent people, including babies and children is acceptable if some terrorists die too. That is morally reprehensible.