Hamas and Gazans revolting

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g71lk09npo

I think it's a real positive that brave Gazans are now protesting against Hamas openly demonstrating at least some of the population can see it is Hamas that has brought death and destruction to the enclave.

The irony is that war trodden Gazans are protesting in harsh conditions possibly risking death against Hamas while in your average 'Pro Palestine' March in London there are very limited signs with Hamas out. Should we start anti Hamas protests in the UK in solidarity with Gaza?

Wasn’t he involved in an attack on an airport?

Confused in what way?

Re you standing up for Hamas? Or are you miing together "government" and civilians?

A bit too little and far too late, they had years when they could have done something or at least try

Is that directed at me? I'm standing against dehumanising propaganda that Gaza was a 'wasteland' with nothing in it but tunnels and rockets. It does a disservice to all of the hard working, educated Palestinians that have built Gaza up again and again and again after Israeli bombardments.

I couldn't give a fuck about Hamas but I do care about people lying in a way that dehumanises a population who are on the brink of starvation. Palestinians are not uneducated, they were not living in a primitive wasteland(before Israel turned Gaza into one), they worked as Drs and teachers amongst other things in the many healthcare and educational facilities.

I am not sure which post you are confused by? The one saying there was healthcare, education, and infrastructure in Gaza with a list of many aspects of that? That is just a statement of how it was before Israel destroyed it, and a rebuttal of a previous argument that there was never anything worthwhile in Gaza because Hamas had taken all the resources for themselves.

@Mylegishangingoff

"Why at this point when Israel are purposefully starving little children to the point that 1000s of babies have reached a critical stage of starvation are you still here spreading propaganda? I don't get it, genuinely why do you feel the need to help the Israeli government along with their dehumanising of Palestinians after they have been clear that they plan to ethnically cleanse Palestinians from the area. Does it feel good playing a little part in that?"

I think we would all agree that ending this conflict is in the Palestinians, the Israelis and everyone's interests.

However if the conflict ends with Hamas still in power then the conflict will simply start again in a few years time. Hamas openly admits to using innocent Palestinian civilians as human shields and that the more Palestinian civilians that die the better for their cause.

The only way for this horrible conflict to end is for Hamas to be removed from power. Now this can be done through the current conflict with further loss of life on all sides or it can be done by ordinary Gazans (supported and encouraged by protesters in the West) to continue their opposition to Hamas and remove them from power.

It is truly a perplexing and depressing state of affairs that there seems to be more support for Hamas from western protesters than there is from ordinary Gazans.

Are you implying that I support Hamas because it sounds that way?

You support Hamas is a pathetic way to argue your point at this stage.

Indeed. It never takes long on the twix links copied here to scroll down to a post glorifying hamas.
Perhaps they think they have a lot of support in 'the west' because they're never called out on the anti-israel rallies, indeed people on the rallies have been attacked and arrested for calling them out.
In the days following 7/10 some people were quite brazen in their support. Of course they don't have to live with them.
I wonder what an anti-hamas/pro-gazan rally would look like.

@Mylegishangingoff

"Are you implying that I support Hamas because it sounds that way?

You support Hamas is a pathetic way to argue your point at this stage"

At no point did I say that you personally support Hamas, only that there appears to be a greater level of support for Hamas from Western protesters than there is from actual Gazans.

But it's good to hear that you condemn Hamas and support their removal from power.

Given that we both share this view then I trust that you also agree that the only permanent way for this conflict to end is the removal of Hamas from power and the sooner the better.

@quantumbutterfly

"I wonder what an anti-hamas/pro-gazan rally would look like."

Perhaps ask @Mylegishangingoff on this?

Why?

I seem to have triggered you with my post talking about how Gaza was not a 'wasteland' as claimed before Israel purposefully turned it into one. It's all a bit strange tbh. I talk about how Gaza had multiple health care centres, multiple educational facilities, infrastructure and a really highly educated population and now suddenly I'm a Hamas supporter who has something to do with rallys?

Are you quite OK?

The strangest part is you aren't even trying to refute my point that Gaza was not a 'wasteland' with no educational or health facilities before Israel turned it into one. You are just going straight for you support terrorists.

So why did you end you post with It is truly a perplexing and depressing state of affairs that there seems to be more support for Hamas from western protesters than there is from ordinary Gazans.

Come on, we both know what you were doing. Your nonsense about support for Hamas had absolutely nothing to do with my post calling out the lies about Gaza being 'wasteland'. At least stand by what you post or else engaging with you is pointless.

@Mylegishangingoff

"Why?

I seem to have triggered you with my post talking about how Gaza was not a 'wasteland' as claimed before Israel purposefully turned it into one. It's all a bit strange tbh. I talk about how Gaza had multiple health care centres, multiple educational facilities, infrastructure and a really highly educated population and now suddenly I'm a Hamas supporter who has something to do with rallys?

Are you quite OK?

The strangest part is you aren't even trying to refute my point that Gaza was not a 'wasteland' with no educational or health facilities before Israel turned it into one. You are just going straight for you support terrorists."

Clearly Gaza is in a worse condition now than before October 7th - that's what happens in a war. I think that point is not disputable.

I hope you agree though that the objective is to permanently end the conflict and that the only way this can happen is for Hamas to be removed from power. If there is a ceasefire and Hamas stays in power then the conflict will simply reignite in a few years time.

I also hope that Hamas can be removed without further death and destruction to Gaza. This can be best achieved by western protesters supporting calls within Gaza for the removal of Hamas. Unfortunately and instead we have seen on the western Palestinian protests the very few who have protested against Hamas are then physically attacked.

To paraphrase Gary Lineker "those that are silent on the removal of Hamas are complicit in the destruction of Gaza."

Lastly I am perfectly fine thank you and thank you for asking and apologies for unsettling you with informed intellectual reasoning.

@Mylegishangingoff

"So why did you end you post with It is truly a perplexing and depressing state of affairs that there seems to be more support for Hamas from western protesters than there is from ordinary Gazans."

Because there is a worrying absence of any criticism of Hamas on the protest marches. Indeed the very few who have accurately and simply described Hamas as a terrorist organisation have been physically attacked for stating this.

This would indicate that the protesters, if not actively supportive of Hamas , are at the very least not critical of it.

Peter Tatchell was arrested while marching with the pro-Palestine side. His sign said "Stop Israel genocide. Stop Hamas executions". This so enraged the organisers that they went to the police, claiming he'd said "Hamas are terrorists". For some reason the police then arrested him as that's apparently offensive despite it being a legal truth in the UK.

So yes - Hamas has plenty of supporters here in the UK.

https://x.com/PeterTatchell/status/1924491553868861945

@ArtTheClown

"So yes - Hamas has plenty of supporters here in the UK."

This is what is so frustrating- if the goal is genuinely to stop the destruction of Gaza and death of civilians permanently and not just for a few years then surely the pro Palestinian protesters should be the first calling for the removal of Hamas.

The notable absence of calls for the removal of Hamas therefore raises the question of what is the actual goal of the pro Palestinian protesters.

I think your post has nothing to do with mine tbh. The poster I initially replied to was under the impression that Gaza was a 'wasteland' devoid of anything but tunnels and bombs prior to Oct 7. All I did was correct her and you jump in rattling on about Hamas supporters. I know what you were doing, you know what you were doing and it was far from intellectual.

@Mylegishangingoff

"I know what you were doing, you know what you were doing and it was far from intellectual."

Really- please do expand.

I am very clear on what my view which is a goal of establishing a long lasting peace for Gaza.

This is what is so frustrating- if the goal is genuinely to stop the destruction of Gaza and death of civilians permanently and not just for a few years then surely the pro Palestinian protesters should be the first calling for the removal of Hamas.

I genuinely feel that if the world had united behind Israel's goal to get rid of Hamas, particularly countries like Qatar and organisations like the UN, the war could have been over by now, and Gaza rebuilding.

Absolutely.

This is why this conflict, in particular, caught my interest and I started researching it.

That in addition to the global protests that started immediately after Oct 7th, not protesting against a terrorist organisation that had committed atrocities of the kind not seen in centuries and had kidnapped hundreds including babies and children and the elderly, but against the victims. Even ripping down their posters.

Shocking in the extreme.

Then the insistence on a ceasefire with no suggestion of what would happen afterwards, and that Israel must negotiate with, feed, water and supply energy and WiFi to these demons.

Hamas cheerleaders have definitely emboldened them to continue. It doesn’t take much in the way of logic to understand that. They lap up the propaganda like honey, despite much of it making absolutely no sense.

The really sinister thing is that I don’t think most of them even care about average Palestinians, they just hate the Jewish people and the Jewish State more than they hate evil demons who cut women’s breasts off while gang raping them, behead farming students with garden hoes, and parade dead bodies like they are trophies, which from a psychology point of view is horrific but also quite interesting.

I mean what have the Jewish people done to the world except contribute intellect, innovation, and technology, and the shaping of Western civilisation (which the majority of their haters greatly benefit from), despite centuries of persecution, expulsions and scapegoating?

and that Israel must negotiate with, feed, water and supply energy and WiFi to these demons.
Who are the demons?

You don't even understand the basics that denying humanitarian aid to civilians is collective punishment and a war crime.

The really sinister thing is that I don’t think most of them even care about average Palestinians, they just hate the Jewish people and the Jewish State
Sad you need to try and convince yourself of this rubbish to justify what Israel are doing.

Then the insistence on a ceasefire with no suggestion of what would happen afterwards

This is what has been puzzling me all along. If the Israelis had ceased fire, Hamas would literally have taken it as a victory. Then they'd have planned the next attack and the whole thing would have happened again. Plus it would leave Gazans suffering under Hamas, and with the ongoing painful restrictions that Israel deems necessary for security, having Hamas as next-door neighbours.

I mean fine, push for a ceasefire, but it should have been contingent on Hamas stepping down.

It is disturbing to read so much one sided dogma on here about historical events that I know quite differently. As for the vitriolic hyperbole, just words.
I'm more worried about the words that persuaded the guy down the road to build a bomb in his garage, or the young girls round here to go off and join daesh, those words created actions in the real world and that is a problem.