Hamas and Gazans revolting

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g71lk09npo

I think it's a real positive that brave Gazans are now protesting against Hamas openly demonstrating at least some of the population can see it is Hamas that has brought death and destruction to the enclave.

The irony is that war trodden Gazans are protesting in harsh conditions possibly risking death against Hamas while in your average 'Pro Palestine' March in London there are very limited signs with Hamas out. Should we start anti Hamas protests in the UK in solidarity with Gaza?

I have no idea why my response was hidden - it was mostly about greater efforts to cut financial pipelines to Hamas. Really not very controversial - certainly by the standards of this thread!

This is what has been puzzling me all along. If the Israelis had ceased fire, Hamas would literally have taken it as a victory. Then they'd have planned the next attack and the whole thing would have happened again.
There was a ceasefire agreement negotiated, it's not just a case of ceasing fire. Netanyahu was involved in the terms. You can read the full text here if you wish

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-gaza-ceasefire-full-text-agreement

If you do not think a ceasefire agreement is the right way to go to work towards a solution what is?

@ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend yes I've been following the situation, I am aware.

I'm talking specifically about interested parties outwith the area pushing for a ceasefire, and why there isn't more pressure being put on Hamas to go from Gaza, which would be the quickest way to actually end the conflict.

Palestinians have taken to the streets in southern Gaza for a third day to protest against Hamas.

Hundreds of demonstrators were seen in videos posted on social media calling for an end to the war and for the removal of the armed group from Gaza. "Out! Out! Out! All of Hamas, out!" they chanted.
Speaking out against Hamas can be dangerous in Gaza and threats circulated on journalists' WhatsApp groups on Tuesday, forbidding them from publishing any "negative news that could affect the morale of the people".
Activists said young people started the protests on Monday and were joined by others on their way to get food from community kitchens, who were still holding their pots.
The protesters directed their anger at Hamas's leadership after an interview with senior official Sami Abu Zuhri circulated on social media.
Speaking on a podcast which originally aired in late March, he said that the war with Israel was "eternal", adding: "We will rebuild the houses and produce dozens more babies for each martyr."
Videos from the protests in Khan Younis show young men criticizing Hamas for selling their "blood for a dollar… To those with Hamas, be aware the people of Gaza will dig your grave".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cyvmmr154v2o

@ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend

"The really sinister thing is that I don’t think most of them even care about average Palestinians, they just hate the Jewish people and the Jewish State"

"Sad you need to try and convince yourself of this rubbish to justify what Israel are doing."

But if the protesters in the West genuinely care about the plight of ordinary Gazans as you claim, then can you explain why in the marches that there are no calls for the removal of Hamas from power and why in the rare instances that a protester has called for Hamas to be removed or simply describing them as a terrorist organisation that they are then physically attacked.

Can you not see that this then beings into question their true motive for protesting.

"The protesters directed their anger at Hamas's leadership after an interview with senior official Sami Abu Zuhri circulated on social media.
Speaking on a podcast which originally aired in late March, he said that the war with Israel was "eternal", adding: "We will rebuild the houses and produce dozens more babies for each martyr."

And this is why Hamas can't keep running Gaza. It'll be an ongoing nightmare for every person living there, and their Israeli neighbours.

The protesters are very brave.

Al Jazeera could follow suit with the bravenes.....

A person protesting against Hamas on the streets of London or Dublin cannot bring about any change in Palestine in the lives of civilians . Hamas will.not in any way be effected by this protest.
(I fully think they should be gone) Plus even if they were gone Israel still are planning ethnic cleansing and withholding aid .

The same person protesting in the same march against their government supplying arms, allowing US planes to Israel to refuel, or supporting Israel financially has a better chance of being heard and affecting change for the lives of civilians.Now they may be ignored in the short term but at the end of the day politics is a popularity contest and people power works.

Where were the protesters attacked for calling out Hamas? Not being sarky genuinely interested in what kind of people would do this?

@Martymcfly24

"A person protesting against Hamas on the streets of London or Dublin cannot bring about any change in Palestine in the lives of civilians . Hamas will.not in any way be effected by this protest.
(I fully think they should be gone) Plus even if they were gone Israel still are planning ethnic cleansing and withholding aid .

The same person protesting in the same march against their government supplying arms, allowing US planes to Israel to refuel, or supporting Israel financially has a better chance of being heard and affecting change for the lives of civilians.Now they may be ignored in the short term but at the end of the day politics is a popularity contest and people power works"

It's a frequent explanation explaining the lack of public condemnation of Hamas, along with:
"Israel is a western democracy so we expect higher standards"
"Israel is a western ally so we should focus on their behaviour "

The problem with this approach is that the coverage becomes very one sided if the protesters, the media and the government only call out the actions of Israel whilst remaining silent on Hamas. Whenever Hamas is brought up then the stock answer is :
"Of course I condemn Hamas but ...."

The problem with a one sided coverage / protest / media against Israel and simply being silent or much less coverage on Hamas is that this inevitably creates a picture of "Israel are the bad guys and we'll only comment on Hamas when pressed for an answer ".

As a result every protest against Israel whilst being silent on Hamas is effectively support for Hamas staying in power. And whilst Hamas stay in power the destruction and deaths will continue.

If the goal is genuinely to prevent further destruction and deaths then the focus of the protesters, media and government should be calling for Hamas to leave power.

@Martymcfly24

This is a very good article that explains my points on Hamas far better than I have:

www.indexoncensorship.org/2025/05/arrested-criticising-hamas-london-peter-tatchell-palestine-march-protest/

Also:
www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-are-there-more-protests-against-hamas-in-gaza-than-in-britain/

niyak ghorbani has frequently been attacked for condemning Hamas and has even been arrested by the Police for protesting against Hamas:

What narrative would that be? Most people opposed to the actions of the Israeli government always preface their criticism by condemning hamas and the 7th Oct attack.

You can be critical of more than one entity and nothing, absolutely nothing justifies the killing and suffering inflicted upon the people in Gaza.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cy9vr10n732t

@SalmonDreams

"What narrative would that be? Most people opposed to the actions of the Israeli government always preface their criticism by condemning hamas and the 7th Oct attack"

It's a bit like a disclaimer along the lines of "I condemn Hamas but..." or "Hitler was a terrible person but..." or "child sex offenders are evil people but...

This is very different to a balanced criticism of both sides. There is a clear absence on the pro Palestinian protest marches of any criticism of Hamas, indeed in a few cases there has been outright support and anyone who has criticised Hamas has either been physically attacked or arrested.

@SalmonDreams

"You can be critical of more than one entity and nothing, absolutely nothing justifies the killing and suffering inflicted upon the people in Gaza."

This is a naive and unrealistic view, the sad reality is that wars kill innocent civilians. I don't like, you don't like it but it becomes inevitable in any urban conflict.

On the logic that nothing justifies the killing of innocent civilians then in WW2 the Allies would be unjustified in fighting Nazi Germany because 500k innocent civilians were killed.

After all the fight was against the Hitler and Nazi Party not innocent civilians. Well OK they did vote for hamas the Nazi Party in 2005 1933 but elections were cancelled after that and besides many of those killed during bombing were too young to vote in 1933. Etc etc....

I think we can all agree that the goal is to bring this conflict to an end in order to stop the destruction and deaths. The only way to achieve this is through the removal of Hamas from power. Fortunately ordinary Palestinian civilians are starting to see this, but it's sad that western pro Palestinian protesters cannot.

I think we can all agree that the goal is to bring this conflict to an end in order to stop the destruction and deaths.

I think the problem lots of people have is that the goal of the Israeli government is to 'conquer, cleanse and stay'.

Of course if this goal is achieved there will be no more death and destruction because there will be nothing left to destroy and no one left to kill.

Tbh I think this is a bit of a simplistic take. Yes, you can be critical of more than one side, and yes, wars sadly do kill civilian but that doesn’t mean we just shrug and say oh well, that’s how it is. Saying "nothing justifies the killing of civilians" isn’t naive, it’s basic humanity.

If we start saying innocent people dying is “inevitable” and therefore fine or justified, then where does that stop? By that logic, every bomb dropped on civilians is somehow ok, as long as there’s a ‘greater cause’? Sorry but no, that’s a really slippery slope.

And re: WWII, I get the comparison but it's not really the same. Lots of people now think things like the bombing of Dresden were morally wrong. Just becasue something happened in history doesn’t make it right now. We’re supposed to learn from history, not copy the worst bits. My dad RIP who fought in WW2 and ended up at the end of the war in Germany was totally shocked at the impact of the bombing campaign which he saw at furst hand and thought dropping atom bombs on cities in Japan was totally the wrong thing to do - that terrorism in its purest form.

The whole “they voted for Hamas” thing doesn’t sit right with me either. That was nearly 20 years ago, and most of the people being killed now weren’t even old enough to vote. Plus, they haven’t had another election since what exactly are people supposed to do when they can’t even choose new leaders?

Also not sure about this idea that bombing Gaza will make people turn against Hamas. If your home is destroyed and your kids are dead, you’re probably not thinking “thanks for the wake-up call.” It just makes people angrier and more desperate.

And I really don’t like the framing of pro-Palestinian protesters as clueless or supporting Hamas. Loads of them are just ordinary ppl who care about civilians being killed. You can oppose Hamas and also think that killing hundreds (or thousands) of children isn’t the answer

You can't conflate all wars and say because some civilians were killed in some wars it makes it OK to bomb, starve, target and withhold basic necessities like medicines with the purpose of ethnically cleansing an entire population. I also find it curious that you are equating Israel with the allies and gaza with Germany, which shows an inherent prejudice against Palestinians. It is very difficult to draw fair analogies but if we havr to then i think a more apt analogy would be india and Pakistan who fight about territory along religious lines. Please note that inspite of repeated terrorist attacks on Indian soil india has never tried to annihilate the population of Pakistan and targets precision terrorist cells or military sites (and I did think that their response to the latest terrorist attacks wasn't wise).

Of course, even during world war 2, any unnecessary killing of civilians should be condemned (e.g Dresden) and lessons learnt to avoid it in the future.

I'm not a mindless pro Palestinian supporter and I can empathise with the people of Israel having to live with constant conflict and terrorist attacks. However, what the government of Israel is doing helps in no way to resolve this conflict or stop the terrorist attacks.

I think criticising hamas is a given and the region would be a better place for everyone if they stopped operating but right now hamas is not the problem.

I don't find it curious that the poster would equate Gaza with the Nazis and Israel with the Allies. Its just showing they know a bit of history. The Palestinians ( although they weren't known as that at the time ) did indeed align with Hitler. There's pictures of their leaders having a jolly old time with Hitler. And Hamas wish to kill Jews, same as.... Hitler.... it really boggles my mind that you'd post without being aware of this.

I don't find it curious that the poster would equate Gaza with the Nazis and Israel with the Allies
Sorry what?? You are equating Gaza and Palestinians with the nazis? because some of their ancestors supported Hitler back in the 1940s, what an unbelievable leap that is. By that token do you equate the current German people with the nazis? I am sure some of their ancestors fought with them.

I'm saying out of aligning Hamas with either the Allies or the Axis in the example of the second world war then yes of course it's the Nazis! Ffs! They both wish to remove the Jews from what they feel is their land and feel killing them is an appropriate way to do this.

I should definitely have said Hamas not Gaza tho, I was quoting pp and wasn't careful with my wording, apologies for that.

I can't believe anyone would question this. I feel like I've gone down a rabbithole to a topsy turvy world.

No, obviously I don't equate current German people with Nazis, unless they start being clearly antisemitic and threatening to kill Jews for merely existing, in which case then yes I would.

I can't believe anyone would question this
I questioned it because you said Gaza and Palestinians not Hamas, you have now corrected that. I also would not align Netanyahu and his extremist ministers with the allies their values do not align in any shape or form.

I was quoting the previous poster. That was clear I believe as was my main point.

I absolutely would align Hamas with Nazis in this example though, would you?

I agree I'd hesitate to draw similarities with the Allies and Netanyahu, Smotrich, Ben Gvir etc.

The Palestinians ( although they weren't known as that at the time ) did indeed align with Hitler.

You say the Palestinians aligned with Hitler, but that is somewhat misleading as thousands of Palestinians volunteered and fought on the British side.

Millions of soldiers from European colonies in Africa, India, and Asia participated in the Allied cause during World War II. They often served far from home for less pay—and ultimately far less acknowledgment—than white European and American soldiers. Among these were thousands of Palestinian Arabs who volunteered to serve with the British military, serving alongside Jewish volunteers from Mandate Palestine. They served in France, North Africa, Greece, and elsewhere in both combat and non-combat roles in the war against Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.
https://daily.jstor.org/palestinians-against-fascism/

I didn't know this, thankyou.

I should say Palestinian leadership at that time aligned itself with Hitler.

The casual or careless invocation of Nazism makes me deeply uncomfortable. The Nazi regime was uniquely and horrifically evil with its crimes stand without equal before or since. They harnessed the full force of Germany’s industrial power to build death factories, whose sole purpose - beyond the use of slave labour was the systematic extermination of those they deemed "undesirable": Jews, homosexuals, the disabled, communists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the Roma people among them.

While Hamas is indisputably a terrorist organization, both morally and legally, its origins are rooted in historical injustices and the grievances of a displaced people. The Palestinian experience includes being driven from their land by Zionist militia some of which employed terrorist methods in the effort to establish and sustain a Jewish state