Page 30 | Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

BaMamma · 2025-02-21T19:47:15+00:00

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman. The locked coffins with no keys. The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire. The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling. The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body. The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike. Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

dairydebris · 26/02/2025 13:51

BambooBambou · 26/02/2025 13:46

You have posted stories about two individuals who used Nazi imagery - one of whom from the facts was not glorifying Nazism but comparing Israel's actions to it (which I realise is antisemitic, nonetheless). Both of whom were arrested. You have posted another article about entirely separate protests targeting Barclays bank to "demand the bank divests from Israel's weapons trade and fossil fuels". And you have posted another story about "a small group [who] left the Pro-Palestinian crowd and subjected the counter-demonstrators to abuse and anti-semitic chants" which included "Go back to Poland." These are a very small number of individuals out of thousands on those marches. Absolutely unacceptable behaviour yes. But not "thousands upon thousands of people who regularly march, display Nazi imagery, intimidate Jews and commit acts of major vandalism." So yes, you do need to go on. Please provide evidence of thousands of people displaying Nazi imagery and committing acts of major vandalism in a weekly takeover of London, as it would seem past posters allege is happening.

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It's very hard to understand how you can have examples literally pointed out to you and yet still refuse the truth of those examples.

BambooBambou · 26/02/2025 13:54

dairydebris · 26/02/2025 13:51

It's very hard to understand how you can have examples literally pointed out to you and yet still refuse the truth of those examples.

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I have absolutely not disputed the truth of those examples and I am also not denying that it's unacceptable that the individuals involved behaved that way, or that antisemitic hate crimes are on the rise and that this is really concerning and awful. I am literally just saying that the examples do not by any scale equate to what a past poster has described as "thousands upon thousands of people who regularly march, display Nazi imagery, intimidate Jews and commit acts of major vandalism."

dairydebris · 26/02/2025 13:57

BambooBambou · 26/02/2025 13:54

I have absolutely not disputed the truth of those examples and I am also not denying that it's unacceptable that the individuals involved behaved that way, or that antisemitic hate crimes are on the rise and that this is really concerning and awful. I am literally just saying that the examples do not by any scale equate to what a past poster has described as "thousands upon thousands of people who regularly march, display Nazi imagery, intimidate Jews and commit acts of major vandalism."

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A) The marches are antisemitic
B) No they're not, wheres your proof?
(shows proof)
A) See, they are antisemitic
B) No they're not, show me more proof

That's basically what's happening here

1WanderingWomble · 26/02/2025 13:59

Fifiworks · 26/02/2025 11:05

@1WanderingWomble

it’s forever a challenge to deal with terrorist groups. What Israel has done is wrong and what’s more it hasn’t even worked - Hamas have the exact same number of fighters.

Now we are talking about the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians- not Israel … nobody at the negotiating table is talking about the ethnic cleansing of Israel, it’s not on the cards at all.

Right now the situation is a potential Trump Gaza.

Edited

"A challenge", yes it certainly is and has been for 75 years. I'm just saying I can see why they might be looking at the bottom of the barrel now for ideas. It's not good. But I also genuinely don't know how the whole thing can be resolved.

BambooBambou · 26/02/2025 14:04

dairydebris · 26/02/2025 13:57

A) The marches are antisemitic
B) No they're not, wheres your proof?
(shows proof)
A) See, they are antisemitic
B) No they're not, show me more proof

That's basically what's happening here

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There are literally thousands of people on the marches. Not everyone will behave in the same way or have exactly the same views. My wording was "by and large". And please don't put words into my mouth. I wasn't saying whether or not the marches are antisemitic, I was disputing a past poster's claim that ""thousands upon thousands of people regularly march, display Nazi imagery, intimidate Jews and commit acts of major vandalism" in London. I'm really fed up of people extrapolating wider statements and imputing opinions on here, and it feels a bit like arguing with an echo!

AnxiousRose · 26/02/2025 14:05

PhoenixResurrected · 26/02/2025 13:42

How anyone can make a comparison between Palestinians and Israel is really quite obscene to me and it massively gives them away for exactly what they are supporting IMO.

Israel has not been committing terrorist attacks for almost 80 years, blowing up shopping malls and pizza parlours. hijacking planes, starting wars, firing rockets, stabbing sprees, shooting sprees including school buses, murdering whole families in their beds sometimes decapitating babies and children (they were doing that before Oct 7th), lynching and literally ripping people apart, proudly showing their blood covered hands, just for straying into Israel and Israel certainly have not gone into Gaza and committed anywhere near the atrocities of Oct 7th. Israel even tried to prevent as many deaths as possible by warning citizens to move out of the areas they were operating in and were doing that long before Oct 7th as well.

Israel also gratefully accepted the land they were legally given, and the Palestinians had no more legal right to it than them, rejoiced in being an independent state, started building and now flourish despite living on constant alert among countries that wish to annihilate them with constant atrocities being carried out against them.

Palestinians could have done exactly the same WITHOUT living in constant fear that Israel would try to annihilate them or invade their country to carry out Oct 7th style atrocities BUT THEY CHOSE NOT TO BECAUSE THEY HATE JEWS SO MUCH THEY’D RATHER CREATE A PERPETUAL STATE OF WAR, FUCKING UP AND TAKING THE LIVES OF WHOLE GENERATIONS OF PALESTINIANS, INSTEAD OF CONCEDING TO PEACE.

Jew haters around the world pat their backs and cheer them on, dressing up their own brain washed genocidal fantasies of eradicating the Jews, into fake concern for Palestinian children and the ‘land’.

Trump is exactly right, these people cannot have their own state. Look what happened when they elected a government last time? They will do the same again and again. Gazans need to be absorbed back into Egypt where most of them originate from anyway. In small groups massively spaced out so they can’t start trouble like they did before. Those in the West Bank should be absorbed into Jordan as again they are mostly Jordanians anyway. The West Bank and Gaza should be a buffer zone jointly governed by the US and Israel which will easily ensure that there is no further conflict.

As for the marches being peaceful. This is just one reported on below. Obviously reported by the BBC and we know who it supports.

The fact the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign sought permission to start these marches on Oct 7th while the atrocities in Israel were still taking place tells you all you need to know about what these marches represent.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz0l34kpv51o.amp

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People can make comparisons between Palestianians and Israelis and feel sympathy for both is because they are both human and the fact that someone cannot understand that is in your words really quite obscene to me.

dairydebris · 26/02/2025 14:07

BambooBambou · 26/02/2025 14:04

There are literally thousands of people on the marches. Not everyone will behave in the same way or have exactly the same views. My wording was "by and large". And please don't put words into my mouth. I wasn't saying whether or not the marches are antisemitic, I was disputing a past poster's claim that ""thousands upon thousands of people regularly march, display Nazi imagery, intimidate Jews and commit acts of major vandalism" in London. I'm really fed up of people extrapolating wider statements and imputing opinions on here, and it feels a bit like arguing with an echo!

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I think the frustration is mutual!!

Whether it's a little bit antisemitic or a lot antisemitic is a bit immaterial at this point?

They are antisemitic to some degree. You've been shown proof.

BambooBambou · 26/02/2025 14:12

dairydebris · 26/02/2025 14:07

I think the frustration is mutual!!

Whether it's a little bit antisemitic or a lot antisemitic is a bit immaterial at this point?

They are antisemitic to some degree. You've been shown proof.

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The marches are to protest Israel's actions in Gaza. Some of those on the marches may have antisemitic views. A few of them may have displayed antisemitic views. But the purpose of the marches is not to hurt or upset Jews or express hatred toward Jews or to tell Israel to "pack up and go" or express a wish for the annihilation of the Israeli state, if that's what you mean.

Comedycook · 26/02/2025 14:14

BambooBambou · 26/02/2025 14:12

The marches are to protest Israel's actions in Gaza. Some of those on the marches may have antisemitic views. A few of them may have displayed antisemitic views. But the purpose of the marches is not to hurt or upset Jews or express hatred toward Jews or to tell Israel to "pack up and go" or express a wish for the annihilation of the Israeli state, if that's what you mean.

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I know exactly what the marches are all about.

You are talking nonsense

DelaneysOnTheWineAgain · 26/02/2025 14:16

dairydebris · 26/02/2025 13:57

A) The marches are antisemitic
B) No they're not, wheres your proof?
(shows proof)
A) See, they are antisemitic
B) No they're not, show me more proof

That's basically what's happening here

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Surely it’s the sweeping statement that comes across as unacceptable.
A generalised statement that ‘the marches are antisemetic ’ is saying that everyone on them is antisemitic.
Now if ‘everyone’ was showing signs or shouting unacceptable remarks in some way then fine. The statement ‘ The marches are antisemetic’ would be correct. However. It is a small minority that do so. It isn’t everyone.
Generalised statements are discriminatory

So perhaps noting there are some people on the marches that are antisemitic is a truer term.

I wouldn’t want everyone to assume all Jewish people support Netanyahu, I would never make such a generalised and wholly inaccurate statement.
So it works both ways

BambooBambou · 26/02/2025 14:16

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dairydebris · 26/02/2025 14:17

BambooBambou · 26/02/2025 14:12

The marches are to protest Israel's actions in Gaza. Some of those on the marches may have antisemitic views. A few of them may have displayed antisemitic views. But the purpose of the marches is not to hurt or upset Jews or express hatred toward Jews or to tell Israel to "pack up and go" or express a wish for the annihilation of the Israeli state, if that's what you mean.

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A few of them HAVE expressed antisemitic views. A few HAVE displayed antisemitic views. I don't know what's inside the minds of all of the marchers and neither do you. But now that you've admitted they are at least in part antisemitic, and given the current climate of rising antisemitic hatred and crime, I think it'd be a fair request to shut them down, no?

DelaneysOnTheWineAgain · 26/02/2025 14:20

dairydebris · 26/02/2025 14:17

A few of them HAVE expressed antisemitic views. A few HAVE displayed antisemitic views. I don't know what's inside the minds of all of the marchers and neither do you. But now that you've admitted they are at least in part antisemitic, and given the current climate of rising antisemitic hatred and crime, I think it'd be a fair request to shut them down, no?

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I would disagree.
In a democracy we have a right to be heard.
The few that act outside the law should be arrested and I believe that’s what happens.

Comedycook · 26/02/2025 14:21

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I wouldn't go in a million years.

I've seen enough in the news to tell me all I need to know.

BambooBambou · 26/02/2025 14:22

dairydebris · 26/02/2025 14:17

A few of them HAVE expressed antisemitic views. A few HAVE displayed antisemitic views. I don't know what's inside the minds of all of the marchers and neither do you. But now that you've admitted they are at least in part antisemitic, and given the current climate of rising antisemitic hatred and crime, I think it'd be a fair request to shut them down, no?

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I was trying to differentiate between the purpose of the march and the individuals who attend it, who will not all have exactly the same views and intentions and behaviours. It seems to me that what you are saying is akin to saying that if a few people at a football match go there for a bit of a riot or to make racist jeers at certain football players, football matches should be closed to spectators? Whereas most people will be attending the football match because they like watching football?

1WanderingWomble · 26/02/2025 14:22

Handwaving the antisemitism of the marches is a bit like leaning in to the 'legitimate concerns' of the far right protesters from last year. Questionable judgment is the most generous interpretation.

LetThereBeLove · 26/02/2025 14:23

BambooBambou · 26/02/2025 14:12

The marches are to protest Israel's actions in Gaza. Some of those on the marches may have antisemitic views. A few of them may have displayed antisemitic views. But the purpose of the marches is not to hurt or upset Jews or express hatred toward Jews or to tell Israel to "pack up and go" or express a wish for the annihilation of the Israeli state, if that's what you mean.

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a few of them may have expressed anti Semitic views Wow!!!
It may not be YOUR purpose but it is most definitely the purpose of many, many participants. While it may not be thousands upon thousands I've seen far too many of them in action.
As for comparing it to a football match have you not seen the number of football supporters e.g. Celtic who hold banners and flags while spouting pure anti semitism at matches? There's been plenty in the news about these disgusting spectacles recently.

DelaneysOnTheWineAgain · 26/02/2025 14:29

BambooBambou · 26/02/2025 12:54

I am shocked that posters here are suggesting that forced relocation of the Palestinian population should happen or is the logical conclusion - yet at the same time claiming that those who support the Palestinians are antisemitic because they basically want Israel to pack up and leave. I've not seen any pro Palestinians on this thread make any such suggestions. Yet it's perfectly acceptable somehow to propose forced relocation of 2 million Palestinians from their home? Also all this throwing around of the word 'antisemitism' based on the premise that people are only criticising Israel and not other countries! Past posters have given many well-reasoned explanations for why they are on here (or elsewhere) speaking about Israel or have attended marches etc, which are absolutely not related to the fact that Israel has a majority Jewish population and they hate Jews/hold them to a higher standard, but these explanations have been entirely disregarded by those insisting that Israel is being targeted with criticism because it's a Jewish state. And finally, please stop false information about the marches in London (Posters referring for example to "The thousands upon thousands of people who regularly march, display Nazi imagery, intimidate Jews and commit acts of major vandalism"). I've attended some of the marches in support of Palestine. The only violence I was aware of was from far-rights aiming to prevent the march. There were people of all religions. I'm not doubting in any way that abhorrent anti-semitic attacks have been increasing and are massively concerning - but the people marching by and large (I haven't attended all of them) are doing so in peace, aiming to be respectful, and abiding by the law. Otherwise, those marches would be shut down. This is really a plea to stick to facts, not to exaggerate, and to stop imputing opinions to others.

Wonderful post.

LetThereBeLove · 26/02/2025 14:29

Comedycook · 26/02/2025 14:21

I wouldn't go in a million years.

I've seen enough in the news to tell me all I need to know.

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I live in London and have been in town when the marches take place. I can tell you they are indeed threatening to Jewish people.

Wildflowers99 · 26/02/2025 14:31

DelaneysOnTheWineAgain · 26/02/2025 14:20

I would disagree.
In a democracy we have a right to be heard.
The few that act outside the law should be arrested and I believe that’s what happens.

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I will also point out the majority of ‘unite the kingdom’ protesters are not violent, but are we going to say they’re not racist marches?

Comedycook · 26/02/2025 14:31

LetThereBeLove · 26/02/2025 14:29

I live in London and have been in town when the marches take place. I can tell you they are indeed threatening to Jewish people.

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I have no doubt. Absolutely repulsive.

DelaneysOnTheWineAgain · 26/02/2025 14:40

Wildflowers99 · 26/02/2025 14:31

I will also point out the majority of ‘unite the kingdom’ protesters are not violent, but are we going to say they’re not racist marches?

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This isn’t a discussion about other marches.
Im also not talking about violence in the Gaza matches so this is just an inflammatory example and completely irrelevant.
Lets talk Gaza, it’s the thread

AnxiousRose · 26/02/2025 14:40

BambooBambou · 26/02/2025 14:04

There are literally thousands of people on the marches. Not everyone will behave in the same way or have exactly the same views. My wording was "by and large". And please don't put words into my mouth. I wasn't saying whether or not the marches are antisemitic, I was disputing a past poster's claim that ""thousands upon thousands of people regularly march, display Nazi imagery, intimidate Jews and commit acts of major vandalism" in London. I'm really fed up of people extrapolating wider statements and imputing opinions on here, and it feels a bit like arguing with an echo!

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You are absoutley right @BambooBambou
These marches are primarily about sending a message of support to the innocent people in Gaza who are being silenced. And these marches are generally very peaceful. They not about the Jews. Here we have continued attempts to discret anybody who supports the innocent people in Gaza.

Comedycook · 26/02/2025 14:43

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Why would I have to go on a march to have an opinion? I assume most of the pro Palestinian supporters haven't been to Gaza and are basing their opinions by what they see on the news.

I've seen the banners...I've heard what they chant.

DelaneysOnTheWineAgain · 26/02/2025 14:44

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