Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

@1WanderingWomble

it’s forever a challenge to deal with terrorist groups. What Israel has done is wrong and what’s more it hasn’t even worked - Hamas have the exact same number of fighters.

Now we are talking about the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians- not Israel … nobody at the negotiating table is talking about the ethnic cleansing of Israel, it’s not on the cards at all.

Right now the situation is a potential Trump Gaza.

They cannot live side by side peacefully. Therefore 1 side must relocate, and it can’t be Israel as there are no other Jewish states in the world.

Sometimes I come to this very logical but also morally unacceptable position in my mind, then I bat it away and force myself to tackle the endless fucking laundry... 😬😬😬😬😬

Of course it’s the only logical conclusion. Is it a happy one which satisfies both sides? No. But matters of war never are, I’m certain the ‘peace deal’ Ukraine is allegedly about to sign is not exactly to Zelenskyy’s liking. But enough is enough - Gaza have had decades to soften their position and come to some kind of compromise, but they won’t. Their position is absolute and beyond any negotiation.

I don't agree. First of all there is plenty of space for all the people between the river and the sea to stay here between the river and the sea. And second, don't be so pessimistic. The situation within Israel itself (within the 1967 boundaries, not West Bank or Gaza) is not utopian, and there is still much work to do, but the 73% of Israelis who are Jewish and the 21% of Israelis who are Palestinian Arabs live alongside one another in a situation that is generally peaceful. In my own workplace I have superiors and co-workers who are Palestinian alongside those who are Jewish. The borders with Jordan and Egypt have been stable for years. We are more than capable of living alongside one another and of incremental social change that leads to mutual prosperity (for example, by now Palestinian Arabs are actually overrepresented in some professions in Israel eg doctors). Political conflicts can be solved, at least to a point that makes it possible to live with them. It just requires a will to solve them on both sides, and international support. We can't expect utopia (South Africa is a great example of a situation that is reasonably peaceful but hardly utopian but allows people to manage to live together).

I don't understand why you think this would bring peace? You are just relocating an angry, brutalised population which includes Hamas members, who will regroup, recruit from a population ripe for radicalisation and both destabilise the country they have relocated to and attack Israel and its Western allies. And that's before we get into the rights and wrongs of forcibly displacing a population from a place where they have roots going back centuries.

Many populations have been forcibly displaced in the last 100 years. Gaza isn’t the only victim, although you would think they were. If they were relocated to a Muslim country a safe distance away, another October 7 would be all but impossible, as would firing rockets and digging tunnels to gain access to Israel. The terrorism threat will always be high, but it would be significant lower.

Thank you Israelilefty how does your view relate to the Palestinians in Gaza while Hamas retains it power over the population there?

@Wildflowers99 Just because something has happened before doesn't make it OK - there have been plenty of horrific events in the last 100 years that we certainly wouldn't want to see repeated. This is their home - and has been for generations. Just because other countries have the same religion doesn't make this less important.

And I think you massively overestimate the security your plan would bring to the region. It's already a powder keg and this would make it explode.

I'm assuming you also want to displace those from the West Bank and East Jerusalem? So nearly 5m in total? How is that going to work? Are you planning to compensate them for their land or property, or just displace them to camps? And which countries will take them, knowing both that it risks destabilising them and makes them implicit in ethnic cleansing?

And do you actually think its fair that violent settlers get to gain land where they have been terrorizing the legal occupants for decades?

@israelilefty this is a really interesting and positive perspective - thank you. I really hope for incremental steps towards peace as you suggest.

Hamas will not retain its power. Despite all their posturing with ceremonies, there is no way that any international body (Arab or Western) will fund the reconstruction of Gaza while they retain power. Bibi will not continue to enable them. Sooner or later (and I hope sooner) they will go.

I don't have any illusion about an utopian society emerging immediately in Gaza, but Palestinians deserve better leadership (so do Israelis, but right now we have better systems implemented for that to happen, whereas there have been no elections in Gaza for a long time). A peaceful border, even if it's a cold, strained peace, is better than war.

Logical for whom? Of course its a happy one which satisfies the Israelis but you can't displace an entire population from the land they have lived on for hundreds of years, it's called ethnic cleansing, nobody was entirely happy with the Peace Process in Northern Ireland either there was a lot of sacrifices made on both sides but there's finally peace, there would have been uproar if someone suggested one of the sides had to up and leave their home

100%. But both people need better leaders, and my fear is that external powers don't actually want everyone living happily side by side.

@Wildflowers99

"But enough is enough - Gaza have had decades to soften their position and come to some kind of compromise, but they won’t. Their position is absolute and beyond any negotiation."

But why would the Gazan Palestinians soften their position when both Hamas and the pro Palestinian lobby in the West keep telling them that they are the victims here.

In many ways it is similar to the position of Germany after WW1 - they felt like they were the victims of an unfair peace settlement and were backed in this belief firstly by Western countries like the US and UK and finally by the Nazis. This then led to a desire to get back their lands and ultimately WW2.

However after WW2 ordinary Germans were made to feel guilt after the atrocities of the Nazis and didn't receive any sympathy from the West for an unfair peace deal/ surrender and especially no sympathy from Russia. So instead of focusing on revenge, Germany focused on rebuilding its country and economy

Yes you can, if all that their presence means is further bloodshed and appalling violence. Nobody is inherently entitled to the land beneath their feet. Displacement is regrettable but appalling violence and child deaths are worse. Their children deserve to grow up in peace and safety, not brainwashed into seeing their lives as worthy of sacrifice all in the name of a grudge.

@israelilefty

"Hamas will not retain its power. Despite all their posturing with ceremonies, there is no way that any international body (Arab or Western) will fund the reconstruction of Gaza while they retain power"

But how exactly are Hamas going to be removed from power if they don't want to and they have the guns. And this is assuming that the average Gazan even wants them to be removed when many fully support Hamas.

Of course international bodies (Arab and Western) could refuse aid or funding for reconstruction whilst Hamas remain in power but ultimately it will be the ordinary civilians that suffer from this not Hamas leading to pressure on Arab and Western nations to help reconstruct Gaza even with Hamas in charge. Or alternatively Hamas simply rebrands itself into another name and then asks for funding.

I am shocked that posters here are suggesting that forced relocation of the Palestinian population should happen or is the logical conclusion - yet at the same time claiming that those who support the Palestinians are antisemitic because they basically want Israel to pack up and leave. I've not seen any pro Palestinians on this thread make any such suggestions. Yet it's perfectly acceptable somehow to propose forced relocation of 2 million Palestinians from their home? Also all this throwing around of the word 'antisemitism' based on the premise that people are only criticising Israel and not other countries! Past posters have given many well-reasoned explanations for why they are on here (or elsewhere) speaking about Israel or have attended marches etc, which are absolutely not related to the fact that Israel has a majority Jewish population and they hate Jews/hold them to a higher standard, but these explanations have been entirely disregarded by those insisting that Israel is being targeted with criticism because it's a Jewish state. And finally, please stop false information about the marches in London (Posters referring for example to "The thousands upon thousands of people who regularly march, display Nazi imagery, intimidate Jews and commit acts of major vandalism"). I've attended some of the marches in support of Palestine. The only violence I was aware of was from far-rights aiming to prevent the march. There were people of all religions. I'm not doubting in any way that abhorrent anti-semitic attacks have been increasing and are massively concerning - but the people marching by and large (I haven't attended all of them) are doing so in peace, aiming to be respectful, and abiding by the law. Otherwise, those marches would be shut down. This is really a plea to stick to facts, not to exaggerate, and to stop imputing opinions to others.

Of course they want to ethnically cleanse Jews. They’d do it tomorrow given the opportunity

I’d really like to believe there could be a two state solution but it seems nobody with the power to make it happen actually wants it

And finally, please stop false information about the marches in London (Posters referring for example to "The thousands upon thousands of people who regularly march, display Nazi imagery, intimidate Jews and commit acts of major vandalism"). I've attended some of the marches in support of Palestine. The only violence I was aware of was from far-rights aiming to prevent the march

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/donald-trump-nazi-jeremy-corbyn-metropolitan-police-palestine-solidarity-campaign-b2699098.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/man-guilty-nazi-symbol-palestine-rally-b2634683.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1rrzp1qwp1o.amp

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/05/pro-palestine-allegedly-spat-and-spewed-anti-semitic-ucl/

Need I continue?

If they're not entitled to the land under their feet then who is entitled to it? Are you saying Israel also isnt entitled to the land under their feet? If that's the case I don't agree, they are both entitled to the land beneath their feet, displacement isn't just "regrettable" it's wrong on so many levels

"And finally, please stop false information about the marches in London (Posters referring for example to "The thousands upon thousands of people who regularly march, display Nazi imagery, intimidate Jews and commit acts of major vandalism"). I've attended some of the marches in support of Palestine. The only violence I was aware of was from far-rights aiming to prevent the march"

Basically anyone that attends a protest march for whatever cause and wears a face mask or hides their identity is doing so because they are either embarrassed about their own beliefs and don't want people to recognise them or that they are intent on committing criminal actions.

You beat me to it Wildflowers99

The Israelis also want to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians in the West Bank, they're not doing it tomorrow though they're doing it right now

How anyone can make a comparison between Palestinians and Israel is really quite obscene to me and it massively gives them away for exactly what they are supporting IMO.

Israel has not been committing terrorist attacks for almost 80 years, blowing up shopping malls and pizza parlours. hijacking planes, starting wars, firing rockets, stabbing sprees, shooting sprees including school buses, murdering whole families in their beds sometimes decapitating babies and children (they were doing that before Oct 7th), lynching and literally ripping people apart, proudly showing their blood covered hands, just for straying into Israel and Israel certainly have not gone into Gaza and committed anywhere near the atrocities of Oct 7th. Israel even tried to prevent as many deaths as possible by warning citizens to move out of the areas they were operating in and were doing that long before Oct 7th as well.

Israel also gratefully accepted the land they were legally given, and the Palestinians had no more legal right to it than them, rejoiced in being an independent state, started building and now flourish despite living on constant alert among countries that wish to annihilate them with constant atrocities being carried out against them.

Palestinians could have done exactly the same WITHOUT living in constant fear that Israel would try to annihilate them or invade their country to carry out Oct 7th style atrocities BUT THEY CHOSE NOT TO BECAUSE THEY HATE JEWS SO MUCH THEY’D RATHER CREATE A PERPETUAL STATE OF WAR, FUCKING UP AND TAKING THE LIVES OF WHOLE GENERATIONS OF PALESTINIANS, INSTEAD OF CONCEDING TO PEACE.

Jew haters around the world pat their backs and cheer them on, dressing up their own brain washed genocidal fantasies of eradicating the Jews, into fake concern for Palestinian children and the ‘land’.

Trump is exactly right, these people cannot have their own state. Look what happened when they elected a government last time? They will do the same again and again. Gazans need to be absorbed back into Egypt where most of them originate from anyway. In small groups massively spaced out so they can’t start trouble like they did before. Those in the West Bank should be absorbed into Jordan as again they are mostly Jordanians anyway. The West Bank and Gaza should be a buffer zone jointly governed by the US and Israel which will easily ensure that there is no further conflict.

As for the marches being peaceful. This is just one reported on below. Obviously reported by the BBC and we know who it supports.

The fact the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign sought permission to start these marches on Oct 7th while the atrocities in Israel were still taking place tells you all you need to know about what these marches represent.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz0l34kpv51o.amp

You have posted stories about two individuals who used Nazi imagery - one of whom from the facts was not glorifying Nazism but comparing Israel's actions to it (which I realise is antisemitic, nonetheless). Both of whom were arrested. You have posted another article about entirely separate protests targeting Barclays bank to "demand the bank divests from Israel's weapons trade and fossil fuels". And you have posted another story about "a small group [who] left the Pro-Palestinian crowd and subjected the counter-demonstrators to abuse and anti-semitic chants" which included "Go back to Poland." These are a very small number of individuals out of thousands on those marches. Absolutely unacceptable behaviour yes. But not "thousands upon thousands of people who regularly march, display Nazi imagery, intimidate Jews and commit acts of major vandalism." So yes, you do need to go on. Please provide evidence of thousands of people displaying Nazi imagery and committing acts of major vandalism in a weekly takeover of London, as it would seem past posters allege is happening.