Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

This is a great post and yes the world was an absolute mess post WW2 and there was heaps of displacement, it least with Jewish people but Israel was given legally and on paper fairly. It’s awful that so many Palestinians were displaced but if people think that 75 years later that should be remedied as if it were 1948, then unless we’re gonna boot all non native Americans out the USA its hypocrisy and yes antisemitism to say Israelis should get out

Can I suggest to people who feel they’re being attacked to watch David Baddiel’s “Jews Don’t Count”. It’s REALLY insightful about the microagressions (and full on aggressions) people display towards Jewish people that the every day person may not realise - and it mentions Israel. Its pre-October 7th as well

Its Available on Channel 4 now

Quite. I guarantee that poster will not address this though. They never do.

Where are the protests against Boko Haram who are murdering and seizing territory as I type this? They routinely murder entire schools of children.

Nope they just tell us that’s whatabboutery. Which people seem to think is an appropriate way to close down conversation but personally i think “How the fuck can we tell if we have prejudice if we don’t even attempt to compare or beliefs against other groups”

I think some people are plain old antisemitic and wear it in their sleeve. Usually far right types.

I think some people are antisemites who hide and pretend to be liberal. Shall far left types.

Ans then i think there’s a section of society who are Instagram raised and go along with the causes that social media tell them to, or can get them the most “look I’m a good person” brownie points. Ironically in the age of information so few people seem to access information fully and go with the easy wins that some other bugger organised and they can just turn up to

They also never address the fact many Islamic countries were seized through conquest, including forcing Jews out of their homes.

BTW I’m a lapsed Catholic and have no skin in the game but I am, and have been for many years, an ally of Jewish people and I support Israel. Thats not to say i agree with everything their government does - i support Israel’s right to exist, on their land, as a state of their own, and that the moment we don’t allow this we may as well replicate what happened 100 years ago. I don’t think non Jews and non Jewish allies realise the deep and real danger so many Jewish people are facing. Think Holocaust 2.0 can’t and won’t happen? Then you’re deluded.

Also - LISTEN to Jewish people. Hear what they have to say. Many are scared, frightened and in danger. Don’t discount their voices.

And indeed Christian countries.

Jewish people were stateless for centuries before Israel was created in 1948. I wonder if people think this happened by accident or choice?

Very lapsed if you are blindly supporting the slaughter of innocents.

See I’m not sure how melodramatic statements like that are supposed to be helpful? I know some people think they can win with dramatic language but it doesn’t wash with me.

Do you think “slaughter of innocents” is happening for shit and giggles? Or is unique to Israel? Or war? Can you expand on your post please? What’s your opinion on Hamas? Or China? Or Afghanistans? Or Iraqis?

But they’re/they’ve not been exclusively bombing ‘terrorist targets’ have they… they’re saying that, but then they’re murdering children with drones; countless doctors have given accounts of treating children with gunshot wounds to the head.

I’m never going to be able to know that tens of thousands of innocent children have been killed in the last year and think it’s okay because it was in response to a heinous act of terrorism, where people were brutally murdered. Neither makes the other okay, and they don’t have to be mutually exclusive. This shouldn’t be about sides, it should be about humanity.

If you can’t see both sides of this, then you’re just spouting IDF propaganda. As for Israeli soldiers not ‘killing children with bear hands’ as pp have mentioned; there are some pretty heinous videos on TikTok of atrocities carried out against the civilian population in Palestine which certainly wouldn’t hold up in a court of international law when it comes to the rules of ‘war’. But I don’t think it’s right to make this into a pissing match when it’s people’s lives and families.

As I said in my previous post, the violence is morally repugnant on both sides and the international community, particularly Britain with its role in the creation of Israel, needs to step in and up and help sort this out. Everyone deserves to live peaceably in the region. Indeed one of the most disappointing things to come out of this whole situation is the response of the international community, and the blatant double standards and hypocrisy shown by the mainstream media (compared to response to other wars, such as Ukraine). Also the persecution of people standing up for the Palestinian civilians has been shocking across the West. I used to believe in a lot things prior to this conflict, but I no longer trust our governments, media or corporations.

That’s what I think, I understand some people support Israel’s current approach and will continue to do so, that is democracy. But for me, morally, I do not. We are all entitled to a point of view, which surely was the point of OPs post.

Also the persecution of people standing up for the Palestinian civilians has been shocking across the West.

Persecution of who? The thousands upon thousands of people who regularly march, display Nazi imagery, intimidate Jews and commit acts of major vandalism?

It’s interesting ain’t it because I’ve only ever seen support and adoration for pro-Palestinian protestors and a real lack of calling out the antisemitism that happens at these protests. And if like me you say you support Israel you’re called a baby killer supporter (even on this thread it took about 2 minutes)

I wonder what people expect Israel to DO. The world hates Jewish people - Hamas and too many Palestinians want Jewish people off the face of the earth. What are they supposed to do with a huge threat next door that has repeatedly attacked Israel from literally day 1 and has rejected peace deal after peace deal. Look what happens when Israel lets their guard down - October 7th happened. A hugely orchestrated paramilitary operation. I find it hard to go along with the poor defenceless Palestinians narrative when they went into a woman’s home, kidnapped her and her babies and strangled them to death.

100%, all day long.

School children are being intimidated by their classmates to make verbal declarations of a genocide and if they don’t, they are harassed (to put it nicely).

Shops have been smashed and antisemitic hate crime is through the roof. These are not peaceful protesters, they are frankly a brainless mob.

I live near a Jewish school, they have security in the doors which they’ve just upped because of the risk of violence. How scary is that.

But hey those pesky Jews just exaggerate and we can’t trust the figures. Apparently

I never said there hasn’t been intimidation and harassment of Jewish people — that obviously is wrong and should be stopped. But there are also people who have merely posted something about the dire situation in Gaza on socials and faced full scale investigations at work etc. I have not personally been received positively for posting about situation in Gaza and advocating for medical aid/ for civilians. Not something I have done lightly as I feel there is personal risk involved. Also the mainstream media has just not covered the true situation in Palestine, making speaking out more difficult.

But to come back to the main point of this thread, about whether the details of the hostage killing has changed minds on Israel/Palestine, for me,
no, because you cannot take incidents in isolation, horrific though they may be. Collective punishment is morally wrong and moreover ignores the history of relations between Israel and Palestine and the many massacres the Palestinians have endured at the hands of Israel’s forces. Equally, I understand that the far right leading Israel think that the nuclear option, so to speak, is their only way forward. But it will not yield the results they want and the suffering it is inflicting will only result in more violence, not safety for Israel or its civilians. Sometimes I almost want to believe the rhetoric, then all this loss of life could mean something and bring about a lasting peace, but the cynic in me cannot see it. Also 60,000 + dead is too high a price.

Western powers just want Israel to do their dirty work in ME and don’t care about any civilians there, hence their willingness to arm Israel to the teeth with no regard for consequences.

Quote from Hamas leader interviewed by BBC: ‘True politics comes from the heart of the missile. Not absurd negotiations’

Your post suggests there are protests against countries committing human rights violations and that the differnce is just a question of more or less protest. That's just very obviously not true isnt it? Unless you can point me to all the protests about the Uigyurs, the persecution of Christians etc that I've missed. As for the UK government not giving other governments a pass, its just ridiculous. How is 89billion in trade with China not giving the Chinese government a pass? The UK government and others have failed to support the ICC for example in bringing perpetrators of human rights abuses in Sudan and Darfur to justice. The list goes on. Everyone can see that this argument is not true.

We aren't restricted to this thread to understand the attitudes of the anti-Israel brigade.

It is in-your-face obvious from the weekly marches against Israel... and the absence of any marches against the many other regimes committing far worse atrocities.

From the posters of hostages torn down and damage to Jewish homes and businesses.

Sure, if you like, also from the imbalance in number of threads on Mumsnet.

It's really not a gotcha to say 'you can't expect us to denounce other regimes in a thread about Israel'. Not when the huge disparity in denouncing Jews versus denouncing everyone else is so blindingly obvious everywhere.

I'm pointing out that this huge disparity is due to wide spread antisemitism. That this antisemitism is at the root of the conflict, and overshadows any attempts to resolve it.

It's pointless to try to pressure Israel to ignore that fundamental reality, in order to force a resolution which leaves Israel more vulnerable.

Pointless because the reason for the ongoing conflict is antisemitism, and Israel can't change that.

And also pointless because Israel is sadly all too aware of the antisemitism and their own vulnerability. They are too keen to survive to capitulate to any pressure.

Although of course, some of the parties aren't actually trying to "force a resolution". They just want to 'make the Jews pay' and destroy them.

If they wanted a resolution, there would be one by now.

Israel won't agree to it's own destruction. Won't agree to leaving it's citizens vulnerable to anti-semitic murder.

So that leaves a bit of a deadlock.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/trump-posts-ai-video-of-gaza-vision-featuring-golden-statues-bearded-belly-dancers-and-netanyahu-on-a-sunbed-13317241

This sent a chill down my spine.

Hopefully more people can unite and fight against this bizarre “vision” of Trumps.

Appalling. It really feels like we're living in a parallel universe at times.

This is everyone’s business now. I honestly thought once the conflict stopped, the media would move on and Israel would go back to slowly crushing the life out of the Palestinians like a background hum while the west makes paltry suggestions of peace (rather like Saudi Arabia - not sure why people are keen to align Israel with boko haram)

But no. Trump seems keen to destabilise the world. His rhetoric not only kicks this ceasefire to the grave but it has the potential to create a wider conflict.

I wonder what people expect Israel to DO. The world hates Jewish people - Hamas and too many Palestinians want Jewish people off the face of the earth. What are they supposed to do with a huge threat next door that has repeatedly attacked Israel from literally day 1 and has rejected peace deal after peace deal. Look what happens when Israel lets their guard down - October 7th happened. A hugely orchestrated paramilitary operation. I find it hard to go along with the poor defenceless Palestinians narrative when they went into a woman’s home, kidnapped her and her babies and strangled them to death.

I think this is missing from the discussion as well when we've talked about the fact that there are human rights issues and conflicts in other places that get largely ignored. It's not that it makes it ok to whatever extent Israel are breaking international law, because other places are doing it. But how many of those countries also have a terrorist group on their doorstep literally vowing to destroy their country and people (yes, I know, Hamas changed their manifesto so we should pretend their aims are different now), using tactics like befriending Israelis to gather information for the October 7th attack? I'm sure there is a better way forward but they are dealing with a group who couldn't care less about human rights and will exploit any perceived weakness.