Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

Well we were talking about Israel. But I am surprised you’d want to compare Israel and Egypt. Egypt has such poor record of human rights violations. It’s one of the world’s largest executioners and it absolutely crushes dissent - unfair trials/torture... There is not freedom of speech there, It is not a democracy. It’s not a regime to strive towards.

Anyway - I’m not talking about the use of administrative detention as a concept which is used by many countries It’s the way in which Israel has used it.

There are many voices within Israel criticising the way in which it is used - which is in a discriminatory way. It’s entirely possible to be pro Israel and criticise specific laws and policy. I have no idea why you’d rather start comparing it to Egypt of all places than just say that it is wrong.

I do think that with Labour cracking down on the antisemtism that Corbyn turned a blind eye to, that left antisemites politically homeless and they have gone over to Reform.

What I'm comparing is people's response to Israel's poor behaviour compared to their response to Egypt's poor behaviour.

Higher standards expected from Jews than everyone else in the world. Lame excuses given for why it's reasonable to have different standards for Jews. Classic anti-semitism.

To be 100% factual, all the civilians held by Israel without charge and under no suspicion of any crime are detainees,

Detainee is a term for a state held hostage. Hundreds of these detainees are also children.

No one has made up anything, although detainee is the more accurate term to use.

OpheliaWasntMad Yes I do believe that Corbyn's anti semitism has increased hatred of Jews in Britain. And please don't come back at me and say he isn't a racist, because to most Jewish Brits, he is.

This is what I'm talking about.

Why say that this is uniquely a problem for Israel, when we can reel off other countries that do the same?

Ah, but it's different for Jews. They have to be perfect. (and even if they are, we'll still find something to beat them up with. Then kill them)

How can you even say this? The thread is about the conflict in Gaza between Hamas and Israel. Why on Earth would people be responding to Trump detaining immigrants and shipping them to Guantanamo Bay, or Egypt detaining political dissidents, or the Afghan-British elderly couple detained by the Taliban, or the British couple detained in Iran on this thread?

There is just as much response on threads and in circles that look at the abuses of governments outside the Gaza-Israel conflict.

Absolutely this.

She didn’t say it was unique to Israel. The USA also think they are above international law

It was definitely implied.

The point is that we don't have many simultaneous threads about the situation in Xinjiang, Yemen, the Sahel region of Africa. All those human rights abuses currently going on. Lots of children dying there too. Not worth comment, apparently.

It appears to be only the Israeli human rights abuses that are worth commenting on. Don't people ever wonder why that is?

So because other countries don't give a f* , that gives Israel a free pass.... This thread is about Israel/ Palestine, I don't no why you are shocked that people are talking about Israel/ Palestine

No. It's because there simply isn't anywhere near as many threads about other abuses. That are also happening right now. Why is that, do you think?

Why don't you make some then

Whataboutery is a really bizarre and weak defense

It's not whataboutery and it's not about us creating other threads.

It's pointing out that anti-semitism is at the root of this conflict, and directs the Western reaction to the conflict.

We can't single-handedly stop widespread individual and systemic anti-semitism, but we will keep pointing it out.

I think you’ll find the old reliables very critical of Egypt - amnesty international, human rights watch, committee to protect journalists.

Interest from elsewhere comes and goes much like interest in Israel’s treatment of prisoners depending on whose arrested and what other countries they are connected with but their have been scansions threatened, declarations of concern.

But again I’m surprised at you comparing Egypt and Israel. An authoritarian regime that crushes anyone who speaks out about it? Is that how you see Israel? I have to admit that I higher expectations - they are a democratic country with strong institutions to protect free speech.

I don't make threads, I just comment 😉

The question i asked is why doesn't anyone? Why so much more attention on Israeli abuses, than other abuses also being commited?

You are so quick to blame people of anti Semitism, couldn't there be any other reasons that people are against the Israeli response. I can think of about 18,000.. and before you say about Sudan or Congo or Afghanistan , this thread is about Israel

I was pre-empting the usual excuse for why 'it's different for Jews' that 'we expect more of Israel because we fund them.' (Not that we do, but the US does. And similarly funds Egypt.).

Is that how you see Israel? I have to admit that I higher expectations - they are a democratic country with strong institutions to protect free speech.

I agree. So why do you let posts like MissyB1's stand without comment?

It's not anti semitism or anything else to call out ANY country commiting war crimes, or any country aiding or abetting war crimes,end of.

Because there are several countries that believe themselves above international law despite talking the talk - like the US and Israel for example. I don’t disagree with her. It’s not unique to Israel.

Sadly @MummytoE , whilst there are of course things to criticise in Israel's recent strategy, the root of the conflict and a large part of the response to it comes down to anti-semitism.

This is worth understanding because it vastly reduces the paths to a peaceful future, and also reduces Israel's options for actions now.

You must have lots of posts about it then?

And it's not about two wrongs make a right, people are just pointing out the double standards. I don't think anyone is defending the practice per se but you can't really argue there isn't a terror threat against Israel so at least acknowledge that while you condemn them.