Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

If @Martymcfly24 and @MissyB1 deem them as hostages that is their choice to do so.
Others call them detainees
Others prisoners

No one who deems them as detainees complains when others call them prisoners…we are not the speak police

There have been arguments made by human rights organisations that some Palestinians arrested and held in prison have been detained in order to ensure compliance from their families, to intimidate communities and to be used in future prisoner exchange/hostage negotiations. These concerns pre-date the current conflict.

Thankyou @Scirocco …. Very interesting !
Fitting perfectly into debrisdebs definition as a hostage

Oh for goodness sake! So now we are just allowed to post lies now if that's our choice? Just don't bother with the truth, or getting things right?

Scirocco's point is interesting but I'm not aware of any evidence that any of the Palestinian prisoners are being held for those reasons.

So for now, can't we just stick to calling hostages, hostages and prisoners, prisoners? I would have thought that would be generous enough given that some of them are convicted criminals.

WRT administrative detainees, we only really know what's being shared by pro-Palestinian voices because of the sensitivity of information regarding terrorist activities. It may well be that there are people being held in detention for very spurious reasons, but as with so many of these issues it's basically impossible to find unbiased sources. I can't imagine Palestinian authorities cooperate with investigations into these individuals, and I doubt Israel is going to openly share what they have in most cases. So it's a bit of an unanswerable question. I'm troubled by both sides of the equation really - releasing terrorists to potentially go on to commit atrocities vs holding people in prison without a fair and transparent process.

I'm not really familiar with the Israeli (military?) justice system; they obviously do have some specific powers due to the ongoing terror threat and current war but it's very wrong if they are misusing that. Holding people under counter-terror measures is not unique to Israel but obviously is a very thorny issue from a human rights perspective.

Apologies if that reads weirdly AI-like. I was going for balanced!

@1WanderingWomble I understand what you are saying about unbiased sources

I have read up on Save the Children UK report between 5 and 700 minors (under 18) are imprisoned every year, many for stone throwing which can carry a sentence of 20 years.

They have reported psychological, physical and sexual abuse .They have been made stand in extreme temps naked for hours and their parents have no idea where they are.

That is not the work of a humane society.and this predates Octy7th

I recall many moons ago on the CME threads it was deemed acceptable by all for those Palestinians ( and other nationalities taken after October 7th ) detained in Israeli controlled jails to be referred to as detainees.

As that suited everyone at the time and was not deemed offensive or inaccurate as a wider definition I shall stick with that…Thankyou.

Re The OP about whether anyone had changed their view about the war in the last few of days.

My views have changed recently in some ways. Other views were formed earlier in light of the war.

I dislike Netanyahu even more now since realising he lied by not saying the Bibas babies and their mother were dead when he knew they were long ago; realising how he wants to use their murders as an excuse to not go to stage two of the ceasefire, as an excuse to forget the remaining hostages, and as an excuse to kill more people including more children, even though the Bibas family has asked that he make the hostages a priority for now. Mostly to keep himself in power it seems. I have disliked him more and more as time goes on.

I am horrified by Hamas terrorists to a greater degree too, not only for their massacre and kidnapping on Oct 7 and their killing of some of them, but because they are now terrifying any Gazans who disagree with them I read. As for their parades, to me they make *them^ seem a bit pathetic and infra dig more than anything, while the hostages of course have all the dignity in the world. I do not believe the release of Palestinian prisoners or the ceasefire should be stopped because of them.

The hostages’ strength in the face of the terrible ordeal they have been though is extraordinary and humbling imo. My admiration for them is boundless.

I dislike the extremist, illegal Israeli settlers much more than previously. Before this war I had no idea how very aggressive, prolific and harmful they are. I see them as creating a form of state sanctioned terror and believe that even if the Palestinians were gone, they would cause trouble for other Israelis who do not share their extremist fundamentalist views and who try to maintain a democracy and the rule of law.

Before the war I never knew about Smotrich and Ben Givr and those of their extremist views. I very much disagree with them and dislike them more than ever.

Conversely, my respect for the Israeli people who dare to stand up to this regime has grown massively.

I admired and respected the spotter girls from the start and despise the men who did not listen to their warnings, and Netanyahu for even now blocking an enquiry into Oct 7 . I hope the girls get justice.

I agree with most of this but regarding Netanyahu- how did he KNOW the Bibas family were already dead? Hamas lie. I dislike Netanyahu but I don’t think it’s reasonable to blame him for not revealing the Bibas family had died if he did not have definitive proof.

I'm not really familiar with the Israeli (military?) justice system; they obviously do have some specific powers due to the ongoing terror threat and current war but it's very wrong if they are misusing that. Holding people under counter-terror measures is not unique to Israel but obviously is a very thorny issue from a human rights perspective.

Yes it is fairly thorny to saw the least. Let’s take for example a 16 year old Palestinian arrested in the West Bank for throwing stones (which is the most common offence for under 18’s) They can arrested in a raid in the middle of the night, they can be held without trial or sentence, they can be interrogated without anyone present. And the military court has an extremely high conviction rate if they get a trial.

if a 16 year old Israeli settler is arrested, they are likely to be summoned and questioned with parents present and more likely to receive bail under the civil courts.

None of that has to do with Hamas or the current war. It was the situation anyway.

That’s just one example of why it’s all so thorny.

He rejected the bodies in the first ceasefire agreement.
I doubt Hamas sent photos as proof though….. on the idea of proof I have no idea but the negotiations didn’t get that far anyway.

In fairness I’d take live people over bodies if I was negotiating a deal. Was it a live people versus bodies question? Get the living out first.

I think the jury is out on whether they were known to be dead by Israel.

Netanyahu words have always suggested that he wouldn’t go to the second stage of the ceasefire but there are tons of excuses he could have used for this.

Well exactly of course he would take live people over dead bodies. Noone in their right mind would do otherwise if they had an alternative. It does amaze me how quick people are to say Israel should have just believed Hamas. Hamas can't be trusted on anything. Except to lie.

Agree. Of course live over dead is the better decision. I was, however responding to the question re.
How did Israel know
Nothing to do therefore with the whys and wherefores of rejecting the bodies

Unfortunately I think the two sides are using this family for their own ends.

Hamas and their macabre “ceremony”

Netanyahu holding up their picture and basically calling for more conflict.

www.timesofisrael.com/holding-up-photo-of-bibas-family-pm-says-israel-must-remember-what-were-fighting-for/

it all feels very icky and extremely sad really.

@Fifiworks
Yes, I'm aware of stories like these. My assumption is this is due to the different court systems they have for counterterrorism vs criminal, but obviously there is potential for abuse of that process, which is worrying.

I think the issue is that Palestinians in the West Bank are tried in Israeli military courts. This is because they are not Israeli citizens, so don't have those rights, but are ruled by military occupation. I think it was the only place in the world that tried children in military court. Whether that's been changed I don't know. There are also issues of having no access or rights to proper legal representation, the trial being in Hebrew, and with children having no rights to see parents or family. Some will not see their parents for years.

There was a motion tabled in UK Parliament addressing these issues in 2021. I don't think much progress has been made in engaging the Israeli government in discussion about ending the practice, however.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67600015

Sadly the Israeli Government don't listen to, or care about, what other Countries think about their actions. We've seen that, they literally seem to believe they are above international laws.

Again. Bad enough without using the word 'hostages' incorrectly.

Well, the USA has also been using these laws in a similar fashion without people getting so worked up about it on here... wonder why this doesn't bother you so much?

Oh look, Egypt does too (recipient of $1.5bn US aid, compared to the $3bn Israel get)

https://menarights.org/en/articles/practice-rotation-how-egypt-keeps-its-dissidents-indefinite-detention

No Jews, no news.

Why on earth would you assume it doesn't?? Do you think two wrongs make a right??