Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

That's the whole point of my post. We don't know. I not minimising antisemetism. Antisemetism is just as awful as Anti Muslim hate. It isn't minimising to point out that we don't know the true extent of either. Does it matter which experience more when both are equally awful?

When looking at dv for instance you don't just look at reported cases and say this is what is happening. This is how prevelent it is. It is far more nuanced that headline statistics. If you actually want to make a difference you have to dig deeper than reported cases.

Do they not? I don't know I can't find statisrics on that which is why it's important to acknowledge that statistics only make up a small portion of the overall picture.

OMG, will you guys read what I actually said?? And try to understand it? It's not a complicated paragraph.

"But WHY do you care so much about the civil conflicts between 2 native groups so very far away from where you live? Why would UK citizens care so much more about those foreign conflicts than about terrorist atrocities in their own country? So much more that they commit 12 times more hate crimes against Jews than against Muslims?"

I'm not saying you shouldn't care about the conflict.

I'm saying you should think about 'WHY' you care. (That's the reason I put that word in capitals)

Then keep reading the other 2 sentences...

I'm saying that concern over a far-away conflict wouldn't cause UK citizens to commit 12 times more hate crimes than deadly terrorist atrocities in their own country.

I agree that both are equally awful.
But the data show they are not equally prevalent.
I don’t think it’s Islamaphobic to shed a light on the shocking increase in antisemitism.
I think there are multiple reasons for the increase but I’m firmly of the view that the far left have become increasingly antisemitic and yet they are totally blind to it - believing they hold the moral high ground when it comes to racism and discrimination.

12 times @MassiveGoat

I mean it's possible that Swedish people are actually the most oppressed minority, and just never report it.

But when you apply judgement, you realise that's unlikely.

If the statistics went the other way and Islamaphobic was reported as 12x more prevalent than anything else I don’t think you’d be querying the validity of the data . I think you’d be ( rightly) shocked and horrified

Approximately 1 in 83 Jewish people in the UK experienced a hate crime in a single year. (Probably slightly fewer since some people will have experienced more than one).

Remember that a hate crime is when an actual crime has taken place, which was motivated by hate. It's a significantly higher bar than 'feeling hostility'.

And you are absolutely minimising it.

@MassiveGoat A lot of hate crime goes unreported though.

I’d be cautious of pitting Islamophobia and antisemitism against each other generally. Individuals, groups and even countries who want to sow division and hate can exploit that “us versus them” stuff. Like a lot of antisemitic posting is coming out of china and Russia, basically keen to take advantage of controversy over the war .

There has been both Islamophobia and anti semitism here on this board. With many calling it out when we see it. Which we should all do.

I think generally the controversy is what keeps the board going though. Not terrorist sympathy, not anti semitism, not Islamophobia. It’s just that there are a lot of conflicting opinions.

A large part seems to be British people arguing with Irish people but that is only my impression.

I think the fact that Jewish people are so disproportionately affected by hate crimes ( 12x more than Muslims) is not creating an us v them . No one is advocating an increase in Islamophobia to even things up!
It’s just completely shocking that

a)hardly anyone is aware of the terrifying rate of antisemitism
b) people on here are glossing over it

OF COURSE all racism is bad … but if one group is massively disproportionately affected then we need to pay attention

What data? The reported crimes or actual crimes committed? Surely you recognise that it is vital to look deeper, do working class people report crimes at the same rate as middle class people? What about black and white and brown people? Catholic and Protestant? Hindu or Buddhist? Men or women? There will be all kinds of things that make one group less inclined to report than another. There is obviously a huge problem with under reporting hate crimes, if only 1 in 5 victims(note not even individual crimes) at best are reporting. How can the reported stats be anyway accurate?

I have to go to work but I find it crazy how some people are willing to dig back to the time of Jesus when talking about this conflict but looking deeper than headline statistics is seen as a bad thing?

I think in terms of the figures, anti semetism is probably worse than the figures convey.

There are relatively few Jewish people in the UK and not all Jewish people are visibly Jewish...I don't particularly like that term by the way, just can't think of another way of putting it. So I'm Jewish but when I walk down the street, no one knows that about me. Many other Jewish people also go about their day to day business with no one knowing that they are. I can't even bear to imagine how many more incidences there would be of anti semetism if a. There were more of us and b. If we were all visibly Jewish on sight.

I hope that makes sense

I'm not the one who did that. That was statsfun who gave the number of hate crimes against Jewish people in direct proportion to the hate crimes against Muslims. No other stats. Just in direct proportion comparing the two.

You're digging in so much - and so unreasonably - that I am curious about what might be influencing your world view.

Why so you can do some more patronising assumptions or racial profiling? I found all of that in quick Google search. I would wonder what is influencing you that you find it unreasonable to recognise that reported stats are less than a fifth of the actual picture. You don't want everybodies voice to be hear whether they report crimes or do not?

I really do have to work now.

I realise that @MassiveGoat but you are rising to it too by questioning the stats.

Take X for example where both antisemitism and Islamophobia is thriving. Where Musk has made remarks about both.

There are actors out there who will jump on anything like this with controversy and use it to sow more division. It won’t benefit of us in the end.

I just think you’d accept those figures without all these quibbles if it was showing there are 12x more Islamophobic hate crimes than anything else.
For some reason you just can’t accept that Jewish people are victims of hate crime in disproportionate numbers and it needs to be addressed.
It’s interesting that you won’t answer the question about where you are from .

I think @MassiveGoat is correct that we shouldn't just blindly believe what we are told and that sometimes facts and figures don't paint the full picture for a number of reasons. However that been said I do believe that Jewish people will be disproportionately effected by hate crimes. Oh and it makes no difference where the poster comes from

OK. I thought I was asking a reasonable question, given the anger that poster showed at the very idea that Jewish people might be facing significant antisemitism, as shown by government statistics.

Disagreement is normal, but anger shows assumptions being challenged.

Note that I haven't reported the troll hunting she repeatedly posted against me, and instead answered. I prefer a discussion to flow.

Yes. Watching hundreds of Palestinian hostages being handed back for a few Jewish ones has massively emphasised the inequality of the invading force.

I would wonder what is influencing you that you find it unreasonable to recognise that reported stats are less than a fifth of the actual picture.

I did ask you to evidence those numbers. Could you please? I gave you the link to where my numbers came from.

Here's where I asked you.

I did find the Crime Survey of England and Wales but can't see where it says that there are around 278,000 hate crimes a year nationally, of which only 43,000 are reported to police. Can you point me to the right section?

Your quoted numbers conflict with Annual Hate crime statistics to March 2024 which details 140,561 hate crimes, of which 3866 were against Muslims.

There are not hostages kept in tunnels. They are in Israeli prisons and many are convicted murderers and terrorists. Not all, but many.

Such interesting acrobatics on this thread.