Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

So I'm sure you can understand why other people care then. So quite why you are questioning why they care is beyond me unless you are of the belief that you are somehow unique and 'not like other posters'.

You were shocked and horrified by Oct 7 but you can't understand why others would be shocked and horrified by continual Jewish settler extremist terrorist attacks too? Surely they must shock and horrifying you as well?

Its a shame you cant take statsfuns well argued, evidenced posts in good faith. You can disagree but no need for a personal dig.

"But WHY do you care so much about the civil conflicts between 2 native groups so very far away from where you live? Why would UK citizens care so much more about those foreign conflicts than about terrorist atrocities in their own country? So much more that they commit 12 times more hate crimes against Jews than against Muslims?"

I know I only bolded the first sentence, but you do need to read the whole paragraph.

You could also note the capitalisation of "WHY"

The point I was making is that it makes no sense for concern over a far-away conflict to cause 12 times more hate crimes than deadly terrorist atrocities in one's own country.

I'm pointing out that it's all excuses- to oneself - to justify unconscious antisemitism.

I'm trying to get you to self-reflect.

That's a bit patronising given you know nothing about me. Accusing me of 'unconscious antisemetism' because I give a shit about the relatives of people that I know, the people that I have to sit and comfort as they cry over yet more news from home.

And also ones own country? What country yours? So many patronising assumptions in one post.

OK, feel free to ignore the substance of what I'm saying and descend into emotional manipulation and personal insults.

The constant London marches organised by the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign has made concern about a far away conflict very dangerous for British Jews. There are weekly demonstrations outside Jewish community centres, worshippers are not visiting central London synagogues to pray at services, posters of hostages are defaced and torn down.
But in answer to the OP my support for Israel has grown stronger since the revolting spectacle of Hamas parading hostages in front of well fed cheering civilians and the disgusting manner in which the Bibas children and their mother were returned home.

What? You ask me to self reflect on why I care and I tell you why and suddenly it's 'emotional manipulation'. You can give your reasons for caring but because mine aren't I read it in the news and I'm just such a deep thinker they are 'emotional manipulation'.

It is really interesting though going through this thread. Statsfun says "many of those posts were one-sided to the point of falsehood. That people were blindly repeating propaganda in a spiral of self-righteousness.
I have a deep sense of fairness, and a strong desire for truth to be told. So I tried to do my bit for balancing those crazy posts with facts."

I could probably be described as being on the 'other side of the argument' but have been posting for exactly the same reasons! This highlights to me how hard it is to reach agreement even through reasoned, polite discussion - and sadly of course how incredibly hard it will ever be to reach peace.

My background is that I've spent a lot of time in the Middle East, have Palestinian and Israeli friends and Muslim and Jewish friends - although I haven't actually met anyone who has been supportive of Israel's actions and I think some of the interactions on this thread have been my first time to encounter such views. In addition to personal connections I guess I also just feel a need to speak out about what I perceive as a massive power disparity and the (quite breathtaking) lack of proportion between casualties on one side versus the other, and do also genuinely have the sense that we can have some kind of an impact (however slight) through our government through speaking out.

I was shocked to read the stats on anti-semitism. I do remember reading that attacks had increased following Israel's response but the numbers are really high. I do think it's helpful if we can distinguish between criticism of Israel (as a government/state)'s actions and anti-semitism.

That last sentence should be part of a new paragraph, I hope it doesn't get construed as denying the stats!

Does anyone honestly believe that if the conflict was (for example) Christian versus Jew, that Islamic countries would see widespread marches and demonstrations on behalf of the aggrieved/displaced party?

You are telling me that it makes no sense for me to care about terrorist attacks far away than it does to care about terrorist attacks in your country. How is it not patronising of you to tell me what does and doesn't make sense for me to care about? I have no links to the UK. I have no friends from the UK. To me it makes more sense to care about what effects my friends and people I know than what effects people in the UK. Yet you think you have some wild insight on me that will make me 'self reflect'. How is that not patronising?

BambooBambou Unfortunately too many people equate all Jews with hatred of Israel. Anti Semitism hides behind the term anti Zionism. As other pp have observed, it has been seen on CITME threads.

Hopefully Mumsnet are pulling those comments? I don't think I've seen any here that have stayed. I've seen some comments disappear!

And again, we're talking about hate crime statistics in the UK.

Why would UK citizens care so much more about those foreign conflicts than about terrorist atrocities in their own country? So much more that they commit 12 times more hate crimes against Jews than against Muslims?

Thinking about why UK citizens behave in this way could be an avenue for you to self-reflect on whether (or not) you have similar biases.

Figures from the Crime Survey of England and Wales suggest hate crime is widely under-reported, with around 278,000 hate crimes a year nationally, of which only 43,000 are reported to police. I don't think you can jump to any conclusions about stats when hate crimes are so widely under reported.

“The findings indicate that Muslims are aware of what constitutes a hate crime, but the police may be minimising their reported experiences of hostility, often failing to record these incidents as hate crimes,” Baroness Gohir wrote in the report.

“Decisions made by police officers may be influenced by their own negative biases towards Muslims. It seems that the legal institutions and government do not fully recognise or address anti-Muslim hate crimes, leaving Muslim communities feeling unprotected by the systems meant to safeguard them. This appears to be contributing to the underreporting of hate incidents.”

https://www.thenationalnews.com/news/uk/2024/09/12/muslim-hate-crime-going-unreported-despite-surge-in-cases-after-riots/

If your legal institutions aren't even recognising and addressing anti Muslim hate crimes due to their own hatred where does that leave your statistics and more importantly Muslims?

I think there is a lot of interest in the Middle East in the uk anyway and it isn’t just limited to Palestine or Israel. Certainly when Iraq invaded Kuwait the focus was very much on two Muslim countries.

12 times more @massivegoat . That's not a reporting error.

I've been open that I live in the UK, and have spoken about statistics here.

Where do you live?

I'm not saying that it is a reporting error. I'm saying that that is hate crimes recorded. If 80% of Muslim victims of anti Muslim hate crimes don't report and 1 in 4 of those have experienced between 5 and 10 incidences and 1 in 10 have experienced more than 10 that is a lot of anti muslim hate crimes going unreported and a lot of hate crimes not included in statistics. That's not mentioning the hate crimes that are reported but arent recognised or addressed by your legal institutions due to their own anti Muslim bias.

How can stats on hate crimes be accurate when so many people don't report due in part to what seems to be institutional anti Muslim hate?

I'm not saying that there isn't antisemetism there is of course but a curious person like you must wonder how we can know the true extent of hate crimes when 80% don't report, 1 in 4 of those haven't reported multiple hate crimes. It seems a very simplistic take to say these are what are reported so this is what it is.

I think some of us are here to challenge the antisemitic ranting .

Killing all those Palestinian babies and children will never ever be acceptable no matter what news or new information comes out.

By the same token, one could ask the pro-Israel posters why they are so invested in this conflict miles away, more so than other conflicts. There are plenty of good reasons. Some will have cultural, ethnic or family links, but for some it's because the UK has strong links with Israel and other Middle East countries, there's existing knowledge and interest in the region from the "War on Terror" following 9/11, there is a lot of cultural and commercial exchange between the UK and Israel, etc.

However, I think there are also posters who leap at the chance to portray Muslims as violent and hate-filled, which is reflected on this thread.

You do need to compare like with like @massivegoat . Can you find a similar survey which asks Jews how many times they've experienced hostility in the last 5 years? That would be a fair comparison.

I did find the Crime Survey of England and Wales but can't see where it says that there are around 278,000 hate crimes a year nationally, of which only 43,000 are reported to police. Can you point me to the right section?

Your quoted numbers conflict with Annual Hate crime statistics to March 2024 which details 140,561 hate crimes, of which 3866 were against Muslims.

I'm certainly not saying that Muslims don't face discrimination and hostility, and I recognise that some incidents won't be reported so the number will be higher than reported.

But I think it's unlikely that Jews report crimes 12 times more than Muslims. And the response to the summer riots shows that our institutions take aggression towards minorities and Muslims seriously.

Why are you so determined to minimise anti-semitism?

This is a disingenuous response.
if 80% of Muslims don’t report then I presume that 80% of Jewish victims don’t either?
Which means rates of antisemitism would still be 12x higher than Islamophobia

Of course it won’t. Every child, Israeli/Palestinian or any other nationality, has a life of equal value.

However when it comes to matters of conflict, there is to me a difference between children being killed in an air strike after events such as October 7, and toddlers being beaten to death gratuitously and deliberately after being taken hostage. We can’t pretend it’s the same.

I assume Britain killed many German children in air strikes during WW2, it’s absolutely awful but unavoidable to varying degrees during a conflict. Netanyahu should absolutely answer for his actions in the ICC however to establish whether all of the airstrikes were supported by viable purposes.