Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

Exactly @ScrollingLeaves
and any thought @DoubleShotEspresso for the 600 plus families expected to have their loved ones returned from Israeli jails only for Netanyahu to go against the ceasefire agreement, leave the families in despair and out in the cold.
None returned! How hideously disrespectful and dismissive !

There are two sides in this war and not just one suffering!

So, have the events of the last couple of days changed my views. That Netanyahu disrespects the ceasefire agreement and endangers peoples lives….No. He’s been doing it all along.

But we were talking about current antisemitism in the UK, illustrated by Jews being 12 times more likely to experience hate crimes than Muslims in the UK.

The reference to recent terrorist atrocities - in places we live, have friends and family, visit for work and holidays - was about whether UK citizens might fear Jews and/or Muslims, and how that might affect the rate of hate crimes.

The contrast (no fear of Jewish attacks versus justified fear of Islamist attacks) just makes the 12-times figure for Jews experiencing hate crimes in the UK even starker.

There has certainly been violence and terrorism in Israel and the Palestinian territories, and that does make people angry.

But WHY do you care so much about the civil conflicts between 2 native groups so very far away from where you live? Why would UK citizens care so much more about those foreign conflicts than about terrorist atrocities in their own country? So much more that they commit 12 times more hate crimes against Jews than against Muslims?

And don't give me 'The West caused it' or 'We fund Israel'. Those are nothing but excuses.

The West caused the mess in Afghanistan - far more directly and more recently than Israel - but you don't march each week for the women of Afghanistan who aren't allowed to go to school, have jobs, or even speak aloud outside the home or go to the park.

The US fund everywhere they want influence. As do Russia and China. The funding to Israel isn't even that significant. $3 billion in a usual year, compared with $1.5 billion to Egypt and $1.7 billion to Jordan. The Palestinians get $0.5 billion from US, another $0.6 Billion from the EU, $0.2 Billion from the Arab states as well as the weapons funding from Iran.

(The US gave Israel more during the recent conflict - but still nothing like as much as they gave Ukraine.)

So many excuses for why it's justified to hate on Israel. But they're just excuses and deflection. To yourself as well as to others.

It's all anti-semitism. It's so deeply held that you can't even see it in yourself.

@statsfun

"It's all anti-semitism. It's so deeply held that you can't even see it in yourself."

China interns 1 to 3 million Muslim Uighars in concentration camps in Xinjiang but no big protests because there are no Jews involved.

Pakistan forcibly deports one million Muslim Afghans refugees to Afghanistan and the Taliban but again no protests because there are no Jews involved.

Genocide and slave trade in Sudan- no protests because there are no Jews involved and anyway the slaves are Christians.

If your reaction to any of the above is "well it's different" or "it's all whataboutery " then just be honest with yourself on your subconscious anti semitism.

Are we? Or are we just finding ways to bring 'Muslims are uniquely bad' into the conversation. Imo what you are doing is Islamaphobia but you can't see it. Terror attacks in the West have nothing at all to do with the thread topic but here you are wanging on about it.

Why are you posting here on this board at all if its all happening so far away that we shouldn't give a shit? You think my angle is anti semetism what's yours? Why are you here on this board then what's your angle?

I was very surprised to see the statistics about antisemitism. I had no idea it was so much more prevalent than Islamophobia. I don’t think raising that point is saying “Muslims are uniquely bad”?
All kinds of racism are wrong but if the rates of prejudice are much higher for one particular group than we should pay attention and investigate what is going on

Yes it's terrible but what has it got to do with 'conflicts in the middle east'? Jewish people in the UK have nothing to do with Israel. I'm being told I'm anti semetic because I'm talking about things happening in the middle east on a board dedicated to the Middle East. I'm being asked why I care by someone else who obviously cares enough to post on a board about conflicts in the middle east.

Do you not think it's a bit of a weird segue to suddenly talking about terrorist attacks in the UK and start asking why people are talking about terrorism in the middle east on a board dedicated to the Middle East? Calling people antisemetic because they are sticking to the topic of the board. They are the one going wildly off topic to turn things around to 'Muslims in the West are bad, not like Jewish people'. Why are they doing that? What on earth could be their motivation I wonder.

Because there’s so much antisemitism institutionally linked to Israel. Jews are blamed for everything. Jewish people are expected to grovel scrape and apologise to Israel even if they are a British Jew with no connection to Israel. Misinformation about Israel is linked very closely to ancient antisemitic suspicion and stereotypes, the very same the required the state of Israel to be created in the first place.

And terrorist attacks in the UK? What's that got to do with the price of fish, why is she finding a way to insert that here? Are terror attacks antisemetic now? Why is mentioning Jewish terrorist attacks in the middle east on a thread about conflicts in the easts antisemetic but mentioning UK terror attacks on a board about conflicts in the middle east not Islamaphobia? I'm sorry but I'm not buying what she is selling. She is leaning into Islamaphobic tropes of Muslims being uniquely bad, of terrorism being uniquely Muslim.

I don't think it is that. It was answering the question asked previously, whether antisemitism is really more likely than Islamophobia. I was surprised by the statistics tbh. I do think Islamophobia is also an issue in the UK too. But literally nobody has implied 'Muslims are uniquely bad', just pointed out that there are far higher rates of antisemitism in this country and no obvious reason (like terror attacks on UK soil) - reasons which obviously don't justify bigotry or hate crime but it is factual that these have happened in recent memory and have obviously had a lot of attention.

And I think it's incredibly relevant to the discussion of why Israel gets astronomically more attention than any of the wars, genocides and ethnic cleansing, and human rights atrocities mentioned. And the response is always 'people do care but we don't fund/influence it' (often not true), 'whataboutery', 'you're free to start a thread about xyz' (but nobody does and that is the whole point being made). The situation in Gaza matters and deserves attention, but so much more than anywhere else? We can all see the hundreds of threads. Can you answer why there aren't hundreds of threads about Afghanistan, Sudan, the Uyghurs but there are about this?

Maybe that poster can answer why it is she is giving so much attention, to this conflict then? I'd be interested in why she has 100s of posts on this topic. Perhaps she is right and the only reason someone would do that is if they are secretly antisemtic.

And I don't think people are accusing specific posters of antisemitism, necessarily. We would all probably agree that racism of any kind is usually systemic and often unconscious, and that people pick up talking points and even obsessions (which Israel/Palestine absolutely is, this board is a testament to that as previously mentioned) from sources which may in fact have systemic biases.

It's all anti-semitism. It's so deeply held that you can't even see it in yourself.

Seems pretty clear to me.

I think there are all sorts of reasons why some topics get more focus than others. Why for example do we read more about trans issues on Mumsnet? Why is autism so heavily dominant on the SN boards? Why do we hear so much from people in ghastly controlling relationships or that have difficult MILs?

Ok, so you don't think systemic racism is a thing? Or you don't think it's OK to point that out when it comes to antisemitism? You're very quick to assume Islamophobia despite the obvious context to those posts, but your own motivations are above the faintest scrutiny? I don't think that post was meant to suggest you personally hate Jews, more that there is an agenda at play and you possibly can't see it.

It was a natural progression of the discussion @massivegoat

@easytouch said
For decades I have thought that Palestinians specifically have the worst advocates of any Liberation struggle that I have seen in my time on creation.

I shared my recent insight (totally within the subject of the thread) that this is because in many cases, the actions of Palestinian Liberation advocates are driven by anti-semitism, to the point that this overrides seeking the best interests of the Palestinians.

@spooooook asked
Are people realistically more inclined to be antisemitic than anti-Islam?

I answered yes, and gave both historic and current examples.

I then continued to say that the much higher incidence of hate crimes in the UK against Jews than Muslims is even more stark when you consider the context of Islamist terrorist atrocities in the UK and close countries. (without giving much detail of those atrocities at that point)

@wordsworthundercover then said
What about Irgun's bombing of the British Embassy in Rome and Lehi's letter bombs to the president at the White House

I pointed out that those wouldn't have emotional resonance which would affect hate crimes in the UK compared to recent local atrocities, and listed examples which definitely would. This is in context, and answering the post at the same level of detail. Not inserting anything at all.

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice then listed many specific cases of Jewish violence in Israel and Palestine.

I brought it back again to asking why this would result in such high levels of hate crimes against Jews in the UK. Why this is so different from other violence - similarly abroad - which doesn't result in hate crimes or even protests. (Unlike violence in our own country, which might)

I'm continuing to point out that your excuses are just that - excuses.

The trans focus is largely because discussion has been shut down in many other arenas, which has meant people congregating here (whether you agree with them or not). Autism is a very common SEND issue so parents will obviously use the board if it's relevant to them. And people don't often post about their lovely MILs because they're getting on with their lives and don't need support.
None of which really applies here.

I think I've made my feeling clear. I don't have anything else to say. I stand by my thoughts on that particular poster and her motivations for posting as she does.

Sorry but I stand by my posts. Why are you here, why have you posted so much about this particular conflict?

Yes, you've made your feelings clear but not really given very good reasons. But that's fine, I guess there's not much more anyone can say.

Exactly: antisemitism is so systemic - and has been for hundreds of years - so inbuilt into people's viewpoints and assumptions, that they can't even see their own subconscious antisemitism.

I would say people post here about their feelings about Palestine/israel for very similar reasons.

But why wouldn’t she? What an odd question.
There are other posters who’ve been starting thread after thread on Israeli aggression, would you also ask them why they‘re posting so much?

I don't think it is an odd question when she is asking why people care when it's happening so far away. Why does she care? She has 100s if not 1000s of posts on this topic. I think she is someone who could answer her own question better than most.

But WHY do you care so much about the civil conflicts between 2 native groups so very far away from where you live? Why would UK citizens care so much more about those foreign conflicts than about terrorist atrocities in their own country?

I'm sure they do. I know there are posters who are personally affected on here. But logically that must be the case for many other international issues that don't attract anything like the same attention. I just find it odd that people don't see the differences in how these issues are treated, or assume it just happens without any underlying reasons. That's not really an honest assessment because it doesn't answer the central question or why this and not that. It's like if people were obsessively posting on the covid board but there was actually also a bird flu pandemic going on at the same time and we almost ignored that. You could say that was a bit weird without dismissing the reasons people would be worried and posting about covid, right?

I was profoundly shocked and horrified by the October 7th atrocities, and came to the board at that time.

I started reading all these anti-Israel posts. I'm very analytical, and an independent thinker. Whenever something seems a bit strange (as they did) I do my own reading and thinking. I learned a lot, and saw that many of those posts were one-sided to the point of falsehood. That people were blindly repeating propaganda in a spiral of self-righteousness.

I have a deep sense of fairness, and a strong desire for truth to be told. So I tried to do my bit for balancing those crazy posts with facts.

My understanding is still evolving, and the realisation of quite how deep anti-semitism is - and how it feeds the conflict - is fairly recent. It makes a lot of the things which didn't make sense fall into place.