Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

@statsfun I wasn't comparing acts of terrorism. I was responding to the statement that there have been 'no terror attacks of any sort committed by Jews', posted by @SharonEllis . I think that's untrue. It is not a judgement, just pointing out something I believe is inaccurate. I would agree with you that these acts are a long time ago and are unlikely to be concerning to British people now.

”I would agree with you that these acts are a long time ago and are unlikely to be concerning to British people now”
So not relevant to the discussion about the current shockingly high incidence of anti semitism then …

So the question is - what is causing the appalling rise in antisemitism that @statsfun has evidenced?

Hair splitting that proves the point I think. Apologies for missing the attack in Italy. The point still holds for the UK I think.

I think being as accurate and truthful as possible is important. If you do not, then it is not a real discussion.

Really? You think pointing out one incident from the 1940s is better 'discussion' than engaging with the point being made?

I have a simple test to judge protesters viewpoints.

If they are wearing a mask whilst protesting then that either means that they are ashamed of their views, knowing them to be wrong or that they intend to commit criminal acts.

Not only have their been no terror attacks of any sort committed by Jews

As well as the recorded massacres of the Nakba in the 1940s, the 1960s and 1980s in modern history,

and since global Islamic terror attacks from 2001 onwards have been given as examples by statsfun, I see no reason why I cannot mention 21st century terror attacks by a Jewish extremist organisation…

I’m don’t agree this is true for the 21st century either, aren’t the organised extremist groups like the Hilltop youth (founded in 1974) that conduct almost daily settler attacks- arson, shootings, killing people and stealing livestock.

Aren’t these a sort of terror attacks by extremist Jews?

Ben Gvir was convicted in an Israeli court of supporting terrorism for his activism in this group…so an Israeli judge certainly thinks their actions fall under Israel’s terrorism laws.

The EU, U.K. and U.S. have sanctioned them as a terrorist group:
”Similar sanctions were imposed by the EU, the UK and Australia on the Israeli group earlier this year.
A statement by the US Treasury Department designated the Hilltop Youth as a violent extremist group that has rampaged through Palestinian communities in the West Bank.
"It has carried out killings, mass arson, and other so-called “price tag” attacks to exact revenge and intimidate Palestinian civilians," the statement said.
The extremist group was involved in an attack on Palestinians in al-Mugharryir village in the West Bank on April 12 that left one person dead and several homes and cars in flames.
In June last year, the Hilltop Youth radicals carried out an attack on the Palestinian village of Turmusaya during which one person was killed and several people were injured.”

”The radical group believes in killing Palestinians, citing alleged Biblical texts on killing non-Jews, including women, children, and the elderly.”
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/hilltop-youth-israeli-model-of-settler-ideology-rooted-in-violence-terror-against-palestinians/3397864

I did not point out one incident. I pointed out there is a long list of incidents. I am indeed flummoxed by the idea of having a discussion where truth and accuracy are not important. It makes no sense to me, but you all carry on if you find it works for you.

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice Yes, I'd forgotten about these modern day incidents.

Very good points here.

Anyway to answer the OP. No my mind isn’t changed because things are going exactly the way Netanyahu and Smotrich said they would. In Syria. In Lebanon. In Gaza. In the West Bank.

Celebrating the deaths of children - any children - makes my heart physically ache

No - I still hate Hamas and recognise them as a vicious terrorist organisation who have oppressed and murdered both Gazans and Palestinians.
I also hate Netanyahu and his government who have clearly acted over decades in ways that make peace impossible and recognise him and his cronies as war criminals.

I still support the right for Palestinian and Israeli civilians to live in peace and freedom.

We could potentially categorise the random unprovoked shooting of two Israelis on holiday in Florida last week by an American Jewish man who mistook them for Palestinians and then bragged to police about it as a “lone wolf” terror attack; as authorities tend to do if the shooter had been a Muslim.

This is a good summary of my [unchanged] feelings on it too.

I was waiting for someone to point this out. Terrorism is still terrorism even if the victims are Palestinians.

Mine too, feelings unchanged

No I haven't changed my mind at all. It's the children and families I can't stop thinking about. I am heartsick over what Hamas did on 7th October. I am heartsick over what Israel has done to tens of thousands of children since then. I will not dismiss or celebrate any of the evil that has been perpetrated by either side in this conflict. Not a single child's death, Palestinian or Israeli, can be justified. This is truly the worst of humanity.

Palestinians have many thousands of bodies of loved ones they are mourning.

The events of the past couple of days have confirmed for me that Netanyahu has absolutely no desire whatsoever for a Palestinian state.

The distasteful displays at the hostage releases were to be expected. It was just part of the showboating by Hamas to maintain support. The crude and offensive displays were an attempt to stick two fingers up at Netanyahu. He who had said that he would wipe out Hamas, after 15 months of trying had not only failed to do so, but was now also having to negotiate with them.
That was the unsavoury Hamas gloating and was to be expected. All that, as abhorrent as it is, does not cause physical harm.

However Netanyahu's decision today to move a tank battalion into the West Bank almost certainly will maim and kill. That and the statement that Israeli troops will be there for over a year confirms that he is not the man for peace in the region.

RE: on the antisemitic hate crime stats in the U.K.
what is causing the appalling rise in antisemitism?

I personally think that the metoric rise of the xenophobic right in the U.K. is at least partially fuelling the shocking rise in hate crimes against Jews and moderate rise in hate crimes against Muslims in the U.K.

Farage and his Reform (UKIP 2.0) party are bffs with now several neoNazi leaders in the US who are boldly popping out Nazi salutes on day time TV. They hate Muslims almost as much as Jews. The war in Gaza has emboldened them and empowered them because they can use the controversy of the war to recruit plain old bigots who hate either or both, and/or anyone they perceive as not “indigenous” English.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage-alex-jones-interviews-anti-semitic-conspiracy-theories-288382

Why should terrorist performances be expected and accepted? @mouthpipette?

They are like a cat puffing out its tail to make itself looker bigger than it is.

Do you think the Corbynite years of the Labour Party were responsible for some of the anti Jewish hate?

It seems to me that the extreme left have a blind spot when it comes to their own antisemitism.